BF3 Tournament - Map Pool Discussion

[Kharne]

Hi BF3 Community,

Since the removal of the Rush gametype, the map list for our event tournament appears quite slim. As it stands we have:

Strike at Karkand (Conquest Assault)
Sharqi Peninsula (Conquest)
Grand Bazaar (Conquest)
Seine Crossing (Conquest)
Tehran Highway (Conquest)

These maps were chosen by selecting the "playable" competition maps with some vehicles, but not too many.

Now we would like to consider expanding this map pool, but this is a discussion for the community. At the moment I would like to consider the following maps (All Conquest/Conquest assault):

Caspian Border
Damavand Peak
Grand Bazaar
Kharg Island
Operation Firestorm

Please get your team mates, and BF3 communities that are considering attending for our tournament to come and discuss the merits of adding these maps. We would like to have maps that involve Jets/Choppers, but would that mean too many teams need a 10 man roster to cover other roles? Or are you happy bringing 8 all round good players?

I will leave this open for a few weeks to see what conclusions we come to.

Consider:
a) Keeping the existing map pool (good chance of tank wars with lots of engineers just repairing & boring play)
b) Adding more of the maps as listed - could mean teams want to bring extra players as pilots etc (is this even a bad thing?)
c) Which extra maps are suitable - why is a certain map unsuitable (I have not included Metro for example as the map is incredibly reliant on a major chokepoint).

Remember with the rules every unlock is available! We believe with more vehicles the things like torches and IRNV do not have a big enough impact to warrant removal. Work towards any unlocks you might need for a tournament - being level 1 will not be an excuse to remove something someone else can use :P. At the same time add anything you think might be a gamebreaker in this thread.

[ccxo]

Keep the format 8v8, as teams of 10 are harder to organise.

Map Size: Small Conquest (32 slots)

Teheran Highway
Caspian Border
Seine Crossing
Operation Firestorm
Noshahar Canals
Kargh Island
Damavand Peak
Grand Bazaar
Strike at Karkand (Conquest Assult)
Sharqi Peninsula

As for restrictions, just go with the ESL resttictions of

MAV drone
spawn beacon
IRNV Scope
Tactical Light (including pistols with tactical light)

Sorted.

[RJW]

Originally Posted by ccxo

Keep the format 8v8, as teams of 10 are harder to organise.

Map Size: Small Conquest (32 slots)

Teheran Highway
Caspian Border
Seine Crossing
Operation Firestorm
Noshahar Canals
Kargh Island
Damavand Peak
Grand Bazaar
Strike at Karkand (Conquest Assult)
Sharqi Peninsula

As for restrictions, just go with the ESL resttictions of

MAV drone
spawn beacon
IRNV Scope
Tactical Light (including pistols with tactical light)

Sorted.

Kharn is not saying 10v10 he is saying that the fact that most teams will have 8 players and then 2 players for chopper/jet, thus a team would have to send 10 players if they wanted to beat another team that sent their decent jet and chopper pilots.

In my opinion maybe jet maps aren't suitable because of this fact, some teams will say yes but others will say no as they cant bring their specific players for specific roles.

I will try and spread this around teams and get some input happening here hopefully...

[ccxo]

Since prize pot is £1,220 for 8 teams split between the top 3, 60% to first so £732 between 8 players is £91.50 each for a team of 8.

So unless you increase the prize pot by alot you will not have many Euro teams coming over, due to travel costs etc.

[Lucifer]

I would say leave the air maps out to keep team sizes down.

[rushzone]

As much as it's nice to see that multiply have removed the rush gamemode, I still don't think 8v8 will attract many teams. You might possibly get 8 teams, but not many more, change the format to 6v6 inf and multiplay will see quite a few teams attending from across europe.
Just look at the response to the format of the LAN event, ESL: ESL Europe - Europe - ESL - The eSports League
If multiplay are stubborn on the format then the event will be a flop, it's that simple.

[zerok15]

I really think that the lan should be 8on8. Maybe, there won't be too many teams that come, but they won't be much less than if it is 6on6 or 5on5. The reason? Really easy: the most of teams that can move 5 players, can move 8 or even more.

So maybe we get ~10 teams at 8on8 but you are not going to get many more if you do 5on5/6on6, maybe 3 or 4 more as much, but

IMO the jet maps should stay, they actually give the game "the touch" and they are an important part of the game, even of the competition scene. Leaving them out would end in (even more) community breaking, something that nobody wants, because all of you know what happens when the community splits in two parts.

tl;dr:
mode: Conquest (32)
mappool:
Teheran Highway
Caspian Border
Seine Crossing
Operation Firestorm
Kharg Island
Grand Bazaar
Strike at Karkand (Conquest Assult)
Sharqi Peninsula

I'd choose a different way of matching: instead of playing 1 map 2 rounds, every war is played 2 maps 2 rounds, so every clan chooses a map. The clan with more tickets wins the match.
/\ It would be the fairest matching mode IMO.

[Lucifer]

8v8 with jet maps means a team needs to take 7 inf, 1 tank, 2 jet pilots and 1 chopper pilot. Also whoever wins the first dog fight on an air map wins the game.

[TCM.light]

I prefer 8on8 CQ but I think that you will get a lot less teams this way. 6on6 Inf will probably give the highest turn out. If not then 8on8 will still be good, but with a lot less teams. Do not include air maps imo:

Air maps are currently broken for competitive play. Whichever team wins the first jet fight wins and infantry is redundant, you may as well send out 2v2 jets and then say that the team of the winning jet fighters wins the round. For example, when team 1 wins the first jet fight they immediately take down the enemies chopper. Now they can concentrate on baseraping every piece of air hardware that tries to get out the enemy base, allowing their ally chopper to fly around freely, completely obliterating all infantry on the flags. The anti-air is that bad that it is near impossible for the inf of team 2 to destroy the enemy air, providing that they play safe.

Also jet maps mean that teams have to bring jet pilots. This is expensive and could mean the difference between having and not having lan support.

For these reasons I would not have jet maps in the map pool.

Restrictions:
ESL Rules i.e.
MAV drone
Spawn beacon
IRNV Scope
Tactical Light

+ I would recommend no thermal vision on tanks.

[Kharne]

This is really good feedback, keep it coming.

[thatbloke]

If I wanted to play inf only I'd play cod or CSS. I play BF3 because I don't enjoy infantry only play.

My opinion is that jet maps should be left out - the jet maps generally also have a larger number of ground vehicles, and I would expect all of those vehicles to be used, so then there will only be, say, two or three people left to fight as infantry.

Having the LAV available on Grand Bazaar, for instance, can, when used properly, help your team smash through the enemy lines and get round one of the two sides to the rear flag, meaning a much more intense game for all.

I would leave Kharg/Caspian/Firestorm out, but I would bring in Damavand as it only has a single scout chopper each, which, like on grand bazaar, can be used to help stop your team from being camped in for the whole match if you lose your end of the tunnel early.

[TCM.light]

Originally Posted by thatbloke

If I wanted to play inf only I'd play cod or CSS. I play BF3 because I don't enjoy infantry only play.

I agree that 8on8 is by far the better game mode to play competitively in BF3 but there is likely to be a trade off between game mode (team size) and number of attending teams. 8 is a scary number and it could mean the difference between a team being able to send players to the tournament or not. Even casual players already at the event may find it hard to get 8 players they know to sign up. Then again players like yourself may not sign up if it is anything but 8v8. It's a hard call.

As a matter of interest, are you signing up for the tournament if it is 8v8, thatbloke?

Of course if it is 8v8 then it will be much more interesting matches, but I'd be careful not to include jet maps. Damavand is quite a badly designed map because that tunnel is one massive chokehold meaning the team that holds their home flag and B first have a huge advantage, but the littlebird adds some interesting play with the option of flanking over the top. I'd add it anyway.

Tehran Highway
Grand Bazar
Operation Metro (this map is a little retarded 8v8 but I'd probably keep it in for some interesting infantry combat)
Seine Crossing
Damavand Peak
Strike at Karkand (3 flag assault)
Sharqi Peninsula (3 flag assault)
Gulf of Oman (3 flag assault)

[Lucifer]

This is pretty much what happens once jet wins the first dog fight. Also this footage is of a Nations cup match with only 1 jet allowed per team so its only worst with 2.

Team NL VS Team Hungary JET POV (with Dutch TS) - YouTube

[thatbloke]

Originally Posted by TCM.light

As a matter of interest, are you signing up for the tournament if it is 8v8, thatbloke?

if it's 8v8, I'll be signing up - either with a team from my own community or as a merc in a mix team. If it's inf only I'm definitely staying away, as I didn't enjoy the tournament at i44.

[nakamichi]

Hmmm...

5v5 or 6v6 inf is the only realistic option that we can have for LAN. It's a UK LAN that will have about 3 teams turn up for the 8v8 tourny, with a few public noob teams to pad it out. You will get nothing like the 'expected' 20+ 8v8 teams at that LAN, simply because there's no-one willing to travel from outside the UK to a LAN with such low prize money and lack of support.

8v8 at LAN does sound great but whilst the game is in its current state (no demo rec, no spec mode, therefore no support from organisations willing to sponsor 8v8 teams) it is completely counter productive to support 8v8 over 5v5 regardless of your opinion on what is or isn't 'real' Battlefield.

[Lethalcleric]

I like how noone says metro

[Lucifer]

Originally Posted by Lethalcleric

I like how noone says metro

Worst map I have ever seen.

[TCM.light]

It's pretty simple. If it's an 8v8 tournament then there needs to be more prize money to make the big teams want to cross the pond. I'd say minimum €2500 prize pool, and even that's shabby. Cannot believe that EA (the $4billion turnover per year publisher) is willing to give only £500 to support its biggest title competitively. That is ****ing ridonkulous.

[thatbloke]

Originally Posted by Lethalcleric

I like how noone says metro

metro isn't a real thing

[hadoukenzzz]

I think infantry is the way to go. 5v5, 6v6.

I know that BF3 is all about vehicles, but for competitive play 8v8 just isn't feasible for most teams especially from Europe, even less so when you consider the prize fund which then has to be shared between 8 teams.

5v5 or 6v6 infantry on:

Bazaar
Siene
Karkand
Metro
Sharqi

[Lucifer]

Will this final even be main stage? The 6v6 final we had at i44 would have been an amazing game to watch if it was main stage.

[abbexi]

Firstly, I think infantry only is the way forward with this, for the same reasons as others stated above (difficult to get specific players in etc).

Although I'm up for 8v8, this is a fairly large number and I agree with others that not so many teams will sign up for this reason. I think 6v6 would be more appropriate. Also wouldn't mind 5v5. It's just annoying when one poor guy is left out of the squad, due to the way squad perks work (I don't think EA thought it through lol). Plus, the prize fund divided by 8 people... there'd be nothing left of it :P.

As for maps, I would take Metro over Tehran Highway any day! The choke point in Metro isn't at all bad when there are less players. Would probably not be too bad on 8v8, and would be no issue on 5v5/6v6 in my opinion as I've played like this a few times.


In conclusion, I think:

Inf only
5v5/6v6
ESL rules

On...
Seine,
Bazaar,
Karkand,
Sharqi,
Metro

[ExAequo-Cartje]

Hi guys,

are u sure to play 8on8 cq ?

At the moment in bf3 we have around 80-100 team that play 4on4 sr but i know that 4on4 sr its not the real bf mode .

There are a lot of ppl that play 5on5 cq , it's the most balance mode and its more suitable for a lan .

I hope that u will change your plans and change from 8on8 to 5on5 or 6on6 .. !

[Spicypixel]

What is it with people picking 5? does every team need a random spare person who doesn't enjoy squad perks? `

[ccxo]

Originally Posted by Spicypixel

What is it with people picking 5? does every team need a random spare person who doesn't enjoy squad perks? `

You dont have all 4 players in one squad its usually a squad of 3 and 2 for infantry.

[Spicypixel]

But then surely 2 full squads is the way to go?

[hadoukenzzz]

Because 8v8 does not work well for a competitive game. That's the truth regardless of if people agree with it or not.

5v5 works, and of course you don't have 4 in one squad and 1 in another, that is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

You have 3 an 2, and it works well which is why ESL uses it.

Either that or 6v6 infantry with two squads of 3.

[thatbloke]

Will someone PLEASE explain to me why 8v8 cannot work in a "competitive" game?

As stated previously - If I wanted to play 5v5, I'd play CSS or COD4. I even did play COD4 for a while.

[ExAequo-Cartje]

Originally Posted by thatbloke

Will someone PLEASE explain to me why 8v8 cannot work in a "competitive" game?

As stated previously - If I wanted to play 5v5, I'd play CSS or COD4. I even did play COD4 for a while.

IMHO :

1) If u wanna play 8on8 u need 9-10 players

2) If u come from a country like france-spain-italy-england u need a sponsor that can support 9-10 ppl because it's difficult that 9-10 ppl pay for themself

3) Atm jets are op (there is a discussion here) ---> ESL: Portale - Italy - Electronic Sports League - The eSports Gaming League

[Kharne]

I have been reading this and another thread on ESL and there are many conflicted answers.

It does look like Jets are something we need to be worried about. But then there is the issue of all engineer teams keeping tanks alive forever and having no jets to take them down.

Many love the idea of 8v8 but feel the difficulty in getting 8-10 players to an event makes the team numbers much smaller.

Others feel that 6v6 went ok at the previous LAN, but then vehicles might be a little bit too powerful.

5v5 and 4v4 infantry modes are more like other games, and not very "Battlefield" like. However they do have the advantage of more teams being able to attend.

If we have 8v8 then the issue is cost for teams that send players together, but that cost issue goes away when each player pays for themselves, since thats exactly the same cost per head that teams of 4,5 and 6 have.

Its one to chew on certainly. Currently it is looking like 8v8 and no jet maps, with the slim chance of moving down to 6v6 no jets.