Future of copy protection? (1984ish view).

[KermitTheFrag]

I know this is RMS's (mr fanatical himself's) view on the matter, but this is an interesting view on copy protection of the future. This could be called "2084" after Orwell's classic 1984.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

certainly we're heading that way...

opinions/thoughts?

[TelexStar]

very interesting and also very scary as its quite a logical step. :(

[Afty]

I think we are definitely heading that way.

In fact I think we should all.

wait. who are you? what are you doing in this room? Can I see your badge? why not...? get off my termina.....

[KermitTheFrag]

On that subject, and libraries in particular. Do libraries have a specific license to allow redistribution of music/video for example as they lend out CDs and DVDs down my local one?

[TelexStar]

well i was thinking about this and don't think thats the problem as its only being used by one person (or should be). Its not until you broadcast music or video to numerious people etc

If you were to photocopy a book or something foe example then that would be against copyright law

[KermitTheFrag]

but the library surely knows that most people will take the media home, rip it/copy it and then return it? Isnt that likely to be a violation of some obscure act for "knowingly allowing copying of copyright media"?

Also - if you go in a library and chunk a book through a photocopier, they never seem to mind :)

[Bar]

on the same basis would that not eradicate all movie rental stores?

[TelexStar]

Originally posted by Bar
on the same basis would that not eradicate all movie rental stores?

no because movie rental stores should have a license.

and with the photocoping book thing, I tihnk it depends on what your copying it for? if you blatantly go in and photocopy all 600 odd pages of 'Dune' simply because you want to read it then thats illegal. But most people copy certain pages of interest or quotes or something for study purposes etc etc. I dunno, i'm just guessing. :)

[Afty]

Originally posted by KermitTheFrag
Also - if you go in a library and chunk a book through a photocopier, they never seem to mind :)

That's pretty normal. Just like if you punch someone and steal their handbag in the street, it's very rare that anyone else around will say anything.

It's not illegal to watch someone break the law, or even to know someone is going to break the law and fail to report them. I hope it stays this way too, or we end up with an informer society.

[Cheez]

Originally posted by KermitTheFrag
Also - if you go in a library and chunk a book through a photocopier, they never seem to mind :)

They do if you rip out the pages to do it. and they dont believe you if you say you found it like that either :)

[Triprotic-Acid]

scary stuff indeed!

just hope it doesnt get that bad....

some of the laws that are trying to be passed throughout the USA will enforce (almost) this kinda of stuff. Very scary!

[Sandy]

Imagine being legally bound to tell bill gates your root password. Ugh, i cant think of anything worse.

[Cabe]

why?, if you have a root password you aint using an MS product.

[KermitTheFrag]

Originally posted by Cabe
why?, if you have a root password you aint using an MS product.

Cabe - you are a genius.

[Cabe]

proven on many occasions.

on a side note....

Top Ten New Copyright Crimes (http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=198)

[Triprotic-Acid]

hehehe, nice1 cabe :)

[Cabe]

sitting at home with a broken foot means that most of my humor is not wasted on the sad p30ns I have to work with.

[Triprotic-Acid]

i wish i had a good excuse for surfing the web ;)

[Zenith]

Yep, having read this, it only underlines something I've been thinking and seeing for the last 3 years or so. Big business will push governments to make anything not produced or supported by Big Business illegal.

Hell, I reckon within the timeframe of this story, Big Businesses will be running entire countries. Try reading the Rampart World books (Perseus Spur, Orion Arm, Sagittarius Whorl) by Julian May for an example of how Big Business can run not just countries but whole planets.

The only thing I don't like about all these things is that the UK and the EU are going the same way that the US is. Remember the Fuel Protests in Sept 2000? The country practically ground to a halt because the protesters choked the vital line for fuel distribution. What was the Govt.'s reaction to this? They wrote a new law for themselves declaring that anything that threatens the national infrastructure (and this itself isn't clearly defined) can be responded to by military action.

That's right folks, if the Fuel Protesters tried the same thing again tomorrow, the Govt. would just send the Army in.

So what does this have to do with "Right To Read"? Your personal rights are being eroded one by one and in a very subtle manner. Take this ID card system proposed by Mr.Blunkett for the Home Office. It is being put forward as a means to show entitlement to certain benefits. How long will it take for your Social and Welfare entitlements to be integrated with your driving licence? They're both government agencies and combining resources would make administration of them so much easier, Data Protection Act 1998 be damned. How much longer before your medical history and NHS number were integrated into the system? Again, it is another agency that would benefit from an ID card sceme. No card? Sorry, no treatment. It's coming... count on it.

We keep being told by the media and Govt. that China has the most totalitarian administration in the world. The UK, US and EU aren't too far behind if they carry on making laws and directives like they are at the moment.

[Afty]

I am completely in agreement that things look dark, but I have such a wealth of opinions and knowledge on this subject I don't have time to go into it except face2face - there's already enough good material around the net on this already.



Can I play devils advocate for a second though? If the majority of the population is so satisfied and content with their existence as it is do we *have a right* to change this using any means other than the democracy placed in front of us, even if this path of mediocrity means future generations suffer?

I say this, because this appears, at least on the surface, to be the case currently, and because I believe it will take more than just democratic measures to give us the freedom we deserve.

[KermitTheFrag]

Thinking this is a democracy is a mistake, perhaps autocracy. I doubt any political / democratic process could disturb Mr Blair's agenda. He's on a rampage - evil to the core.

Taking back freedom would constitute as revolution I believe, which would kill a few people for sure. The problem is people are so apathetic and would prefer to sacrife their rights and freedom for their own personal comfort and "tv lifestyle".

Would there be anyone worth saving ?

I think I'd stand alone.

[TelexStar]

Originally posted by Cabe
proven on many occasions.

on a side note....

Top Ten New Copyright Crimes (http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=198)

Thats really scary as well. I can't believe it and yet in a way i can!

Originally posted by Zenith
So what does this have to do with "Right To Read"? Your personal rights are being eroded one by one and in a very subtle manner. Take this ID card system proposed by Mr.Blunkett for the Home Office. It is being put forward as a means to show entitlement to certain benefits. How long will it take for your Social and Welfare entitlements to be integrated with your driving licence? They're both government agencies and combining resources would make administration of them so much easier, Data Protection Act 1998 be damned. How much longer before your medical history and NHS number were integrated into the system? Again, it is another agency that would benefit from an ID card sceme. No card? Sorry, no treatment. It's coming... count on it.

I agree too. I know you guys all hate this but i'm going to relate this back to the good ol' book of Revelations in the Bible :D If you have'nt read it then i suggest you do, its very interesting and probably one of the most interesting books to read if you don't usually belive in this sort of thing. Basically it details a 'revelation' that John had from God which told him about the events that would lead up to the end times etc etc. There a part in it (i can't remember where exactly) but it talks about how certain people will have a 'mark', its described as the 'mark of the beast' but this does'nt literally necessarily mean a mark, but more some kind of identification that is given to certain people. For example people in power, wealthy people, corrupt people, who knows? It talks about how only people with this identification will have access to certain rights. Similar to that which hitler did with the jews. Everyone will be able to see who has rights and who does'nt. Reading all these stories of copyright laws and the right to read etc has really brought it to mind, i never really thought about it before because the book is so metaphorical and people have translated it in different ways and generally just confused thing. But nevertheless, its interesting to know.

my 2p's worth

[Zenith]

This link is BBC News item about mobile phones being reprogrammed. Linky linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1966000/1966381.stm)

Like the previous postings, the Govt. is going to make changing the IMEI no. of a mobile illegal. Granted that there is no real reason to change the number on the phone, this is just another step towards "2084". Here is a release on the Home Office website about it. Linky linky (http://213.219.10.30/n_story.asp?item_id=57)

[KermitTheFrag]

Interesting article.

Not a problem for me as I'm awaiting my last mobile phone bill before the contract is cancelled. I won't be getting another phone either (simply due to the fact that i dont need it).

btw im referring to the triangulation of your position correlated with ID that is possible.

[Big Giant Head]

What really worried me about the ID card stuff as much as the sharing of information was this survey:


Then, if that wasn't bad enough, they are asked what they wouldn't mind being on the card.

Date of birth: 96, yes; 3, no; 1, don't know
Photograph: 97, yes; 3, no
Eye colour: 92, yes; 7, no; 1; don't know
Finger print: 85, yes; 14, no; 1, don't know
DNA details: 75, yes; 21, no; 4, don't know
Religion: 67, yes; 31, no; 2, don't know
Criminal records: 74, yes; 23, no; 3, don't know

Yes that's right 2/3's of people in britain wouldn't mind someones RELIGION being on an ID card, 3/4's wouldn't mind their DNA being on it

Admittedly the survey was taken on the 29th Sept so people may have been a touch highly strung but still......

If you want to read the full story see here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/21849.html

As far as free speech goes lately there have been a few laws in the US blocked where certain states tried to enforce blocking of internet sites (Kiddie porn, hate sites etc) and were stopped because of overly broad definitions of sites. That sort of blocking is done in china and extremely effectively too, thanks to the cooporation of western business (cisco mostly), amazing how fast companies can forget their principals when they're asked to install a system to monitor billions of peoples internet usage and help keep a regime in power and there are billions of dollars involved (can't remember where I read the article about that but if you can turn it up its an excellent read)

Hmmm apologies for my incoherent ramblings

[KermitTheFrag]

that proves my point that half the population are stupid and not worth saving from themselves...

[Big Giant Head]

With the newer G3 phones I think they can traingulate someones position down to about 15 feet although unfortuanately I can't seem to find the article to confirm that

[Afty]

Originally posted by - Big Giant Head -
That sort of blocking is done in china and extremely effectively too, thanks to the cooporation of western business (cisco mostly), amazing how fast companies can forget their principals when they're asked to install a system to monitor billions of peoples internet usage
Or when a company is paid thousands of Deutschmarks to install a "system" to handle the processing of a certain sub-set of the population in order to efficiently administer the 'final solution' effectively.

Did you know that 89% of Jewish under 16s at the start of the war did not survive past 1945. Have you any idea how many children that is (using a simple demographics based guess, and fairly accepted figures of 5.5m Jews killed in the holocaust).

Now, you may or may not like to know that it was International Business Machines that installed and ran for a time, that system.

IBM

[KermitTheFrag]

You also might find that the Americans were actually still trading with Hitler's forces during the early part of the war. They only enforced trade embargoes once they got involved themselves.

Its not just the company, its the culture.

[Big Giant Head]

hmmm I studied naziism extensively at a-level but was unaware of that particular tit bit afty thx :)

[Afty]

Yeah, incidentally there's another bit you might like that I can't be arsed to go lookup so when you see names below like *this/that* it means I can't remember whether it is either this or that. Makes no odds to the story though.

When the allies were rolling into France, massive bombing raids were undertaken to large German industrial centres including cities like Hamburg and Dresden.

*Ford/General Motors* (large American automobile manufacturer) had a stupidly large plant in one of these cities (I think Dresden?) before the war, and hoped to be able to use it again afterwards. At their insistence the US strategic bomber command changed its plans considerably, sparing much of Dresden while Hamburg received the full toasting intended (there was no car manufacturer close to the city center there). Hamburg was firebombed by British and US bombers four times, the worst of which resulted in flames over a mile high as the congested inner city burned, and temperatures of around 1500C - in all four raids it's estimated 50,000 civilians died (although estimates vary depending on source). Dresden (if its the right city) escaped this, and instead was attacked more conventionally resulting in the deaths of many allied ground troops, and a setback in the overall progress (albeit minor).

After the war, the automobile plants were returned to their corporate owners.

[SquireMuldoon]

With regards to mobile phone IMEIs, Im in total agreement with the criminalisation of altering it, and I see no reason why it should not be so.

Until such a law comes into force, it just makes phone theft soooo easy and worthwhile.

This is an interesting thread and I agree with most points raised... I just dont see how this particular change can be seen as an erosion of our rights. I mean, what right are you protecting? The right to profit through theft?

I dont know how many of you are aware of this, but you already have another unique ID in your mobile handset that gets transmitted in every phone call. The IMSI (International Mobile Subscriber Identity), is what makes your SIM card unique, and associates the call with your account.

[Cabe]

Its swings and roundabouts really.

I put these situations towards you.

Criminal investigations

Say your DNA is put on a record that only the Police could access with authority, ala warrents. And a particularly vicious rape happened in your area. The police would then be authorised to search the database and EXCLUDE you from the investigations. DNA evidence proves you were NOT the culprit (and would signifcantly increase the chances of catching the one who did, if submitting your DNA was mandatory, this would be an effective detterent).

Medical Needs

Say your medical records were stored on a database that was only accessable by Medics. Your in a serious accident, they swipe your card and your blood type, allergies, other vital needs are there on the screen, including your contact details and should the worst come to the worst, your views on organ transplants (thus help saving outher people)

Banking

Your fingerprint is stored electronically, to acces your account you use Biometrics.

However these systems do hold the ability to track you, and your activities. If there monitored and implemented in the free and responsible society I believe we live in. Then I would have no objections to an ID card.

[Big Giant Head]

Finger print scanners to pay for things are being tested heavily in the US atm, Maccies apparantly love them cause it takes money handly out of the hands of a bunch of 16 year old kids :)

[Cabe]

I would cirtainly love to stop having to carry cash around with me. I keep spending it :D

[Triprotic-Acid]

i think just a finger print to get money from an ATM would be bad.....

imagine what criminals might do...... (cutting fingers/hands off :eek: )

as BGH said, swings and round abouts!

[Big Giant Head]

Iris scanners look better because they measure the way the eye reacts to the light being shone on it as well so the eye has to be attached to a person ;)

[Cabe]

"Biometrics" isnt just physical characteristics it takes other things into consideration, IE you have to be alive to use them.

[Afty]

Yes, this brings up a couple of issues:

1] Fingerprints are not unique. (almost, but not totally, nowhere near as good as DNA, which also can be confused at the accuracies we test to. Anyone think it's wrong to convict someone without a motive or other evidence, based on DNA alone if the expert says it's a "million to one" chance it was someone else, in a country with three hundred million residents?)

2] There was a tale about a guy in India who received payments from a company (pension I think) who couldn't write, so he used his fingerprint to sign for each weeks payment.
When he was 104, the company sent for him for publicity shots as the oldest living person to have worked for the company, turns out he died twenty odd years before and the family just cut off his hand and preserved it well, using it occasionally.

[Antoine]

im pretty sure dresden was burnt to the ground, recalling from general knowlege, may have been hamburg that was saved, but im sure Dresden was firebombed, and completely destroyed.

And in china, the government wat to get the business benefits from the net, but not get the forum for political dissent, hence every net cafe has to have a log of who gos on the computer and where they go, not long ago they closed thousands of small ones that didnt do this.

I read all this on an article on salon.com, its an american site, some of you may read this, but for an anti-censorship view read this below, its the best i have ever heard, in the way it is written, and in the depth of argument.

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/06/11/children/

i cant remember where the china thing was on here, but i know it was on this site, after you (hopefully) read this article, have a look at the site, i have a feel you will like it.

[Tsung]

The original article was a good read, and so true of the way things are going.

Biometrics isnt as good as the companies that sell it have you believe. Well, not if there is any truth in the following article on the Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/25400.html).

They can be easierly fooled, even the ones that check to make sure your still "alive".

With regards to mobile phone IMEIs, Im in total agreement with the criminalisation of altering it, and I see no reason why it should not be so.

Maybe, but will it stop the criminals from doing it?, I doubt it, so what has the law achieved?. Sure the law is nice, it clearly states the legal position if you were caught "altering" the phone, but its nothing more than a weak threat, mobile phones will still be stolen and in the same quanitity as before.

ID cards, a good idea???. I think not... Imagine, every UK citizen has to carry an ID card, and they must be able to produce it when requested by an official (police officer say). Failure to produce the card (say you lose it) would mean you are obviously a "terrorist", and thus would be arrested and detained.

But worse than that, society would rely on the cards, criminals would copy them, but alter the data slightly. Someone could be commiting crimes, using a modified card with your details on it. The police would come knocking on your door, you would deny the crimes, but it would be no good, you were there and they have evidence to prove it.

Maybe in the future there will not be such a thing as a "free society", instead we will all be enslaved into doing what were told. We'll become a small part of a big machine, almost like the borg :p:

[TelexStar]

i don't mind just so long as jeri ryan is there :p: :D

[Eskimo]

hehe nice one telex :)

i think that the mobile phone thing is a quite a good idea apart from the tracting thing that is a little big brother raelly.

The rest of this thread is a very good read

[Afty]

Originally posted by Antoine
im pretty sure dresden was burnt to the ground, recalling from general knowlege, may have been hamburg that was saved, but im sure Dresden was firebombed, and completely destroyed.

Thanks. It's been a while since I did any reading into WW2 so my memory is hazy, but one of these days I'll get around to it again. and I'll clarify on here when I do