Broadband advice?

[Ross]

I'm thinking about buying broadband and I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations. I will need to use this on a network and need internet sharing. I have heard that BT doesnt like internet sharing.

Thanks
:D

[Cabe]

NTL: dont support it

IE dont winge at them when it doesnt work but thier AUP says diddly about wheter you can/can not do it.

so im taking that "you can but on your head be it"

[wishy]

BTo are the same. Eg i'm routing half a dozen systems on it and running a web page, but they wouldn't give me help if i couldn't get it running.

[r3plica]

I have both internet connections so i will give my opinion.

OK Cable DOES allow ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) but you have to use a program like sygate or WinRoute, not the default ICS in windows (****).

ADSL on the other hand does not. this is because it creates a network protocol called NDiswan (i think thats the right spelling).
The protocol disables the NetBui, and other protocols, stopping you from using the network.

note: you will find that ADSL will work for awhile, but eventually it will crash. Cable is STABLE

[Big Giant Head]

Whatever you say m8

/me checks net connected box

hmmmm 15 days connected on adsl

Only about 9 boxes routed through it

adsl will occassionally die and then recon, but that's actually an ISP imposed limit (I think)

[Blacksheep]

Ive got BT adsl and am using winroute and it works fine ive had 4 pc's on it playing CS to a reasonable ping etc. I know it workd at other places to as my m8 had a LAN in jan and we hade six going although not all playing at the same time but browsing and file download works fine.

[Catachan]

ADSL DOES work with ICS. I'm using it right now to allow all the machines in the house to connect.

My connection hasn't ever gone down of it's own accord. I've had ADSL connections up for weeks before. It only disconnects if it's a scheduled downtime, or if I do it manually (shutdown, etc.).

So to reiterate, ADSL does work with ICS.

[Ross]

Cheers guys. How much does it cost? I thought I heard it was something like £30 a month.

[Blacksheep]

When i got it installed at the end of last year it was halfprice instalation not sure if it still is if it is its 79.99 and a monthly charge of 39.99 after that.

[Big Giant Head]

Pipex are doing adsl for about £30 atm

No idea how good it is though

[Catachan]

BT has announced that they'll be cutting the price soon anyhow :D

[Ekim]

I am on Freeserve ADSL at the moment and that is £30 a month and I can assure it is very good!

[James Nukem]

Well i got Blueyonder broadband installed for free cos i went to i8 :P mwuahahaha. Only costs me 25 a month and boy is it fast (512k as to 56k modem).
You can get it to work with ICS but i havent maned to do it myself yet

[James Nukem]

Originally posted by - Big Giant Head -
Pipex are doing adsl for about £30 atm

No idea how good it is though

I think i heard ADSL was only 128k i think. as to cable being 512k

[wishy]

My ADSL routing / webserver / everythingelse server box has an uptime of 6 weeks and is DEFINATELY doing routing without any problems. In fact, if it wasn't. I wouldn't be able to post this now.

[piddle spank]

we (me and sn8kez) are on cable and running a network fine. but the main problem i have found with NTL cable is that uploading affects downloading speeds dramticaly because its no fullduplex i belevie. but my pings are still around 60 -70 even when the other computer is downloading at 70 - 80 k

[KermitTheFrag]

I'll have Pipex ADSL installed after I get paid ;) ... if its like normal Pipex service, it'll be floorless.

btw, anyone know if you still have to use BT approved equipment on install-it-yourself ADSL, or can i just get one of those funky alcatel routers ?

[Pumpkin]

Most of the people that have posted to this thread have been smoking far too much crack.

[KermitTheFrag]

lol

[Ekim]

Originally posted by James Nukem


I think i heard ADSL was only 128k i think. as to cable being 512k

nah adsl is 512k downstream and 256k upstream

[r3plica]

ok ok seems i may have been a liitle presumtious in my last reply, its just in my pub adsl is **** and does not allow me to look across the network (i have no idea why) just this NdisWan protocol seems to stop LANing and it pisses me off

I have used win98\2000\me and now xp and have the same prob with all.

as to cable, i never have had any problems. tis well stable....

more comments required =]

[SmartMonkey]

Having had an opertunity to play with both types of connection, they both have good and bad points.

If you dont need the highspeed upload, and can put up with the non existent tech support cable is cheaper.
(my cable cost me £25 to Install and £25 per month, including the cable modem).
However ADSL is more Flexible and offers a higher Upload speed as standard.


Whilst both offer 512Kbps download ADSL offers 256Kbps upload whilst cable only offers 128Kbps.

If you require more bandwidth you can pay to have up to 2Mbps on ADSL, this is not available on cable.

You can also pay to have up to 13 fixed Ip's on ADSL (if you use the business service) which enables you to host/run multiple computers without NAT.

SmartMonkey

[werewolf]

Originally posted by SmartMonkey


If you require more bandwidth you can pay to have up to 2Mbps on ADSL, this is not available on cable.

Doesn't that cost a bomb though?

Also remember Cable is theorectically capable of up to 37 (or is it 47) mbit downloads (at least according the box my modem came in).

The problem is getting an ISP that will allow it;)

[r3plica]

yeah and i believe that to have up to 2mbs costs around 200 /month

and also found adsl a bitch to install on a win98 o/s (easy on win2000/me/xp)
where as cable was so simple even my mother could do it....

[Ross]

Well Iv got xp so it should be ok. Im not gonna pay any more than £40 a month though!

:D

[Groodles]

okay, spot the n00bie

[Ross]

That'll be why it says n00bie under my name!

But I asked for advice not crappy coments!


:mad:

[Groodles]

erm, I wasn't actually referring to you "Ross" as it is your thread and you've posted it asking for help.

My comment was aimed at the poster who thought ADSL can't be networked.

[Ross]

Oh right sorry m8! :rolleyes:

OK another question for you all: Considering I don't know much at all about adsl or cable, who all offer adsl because I havent really seen it advertised much? I know BT do and NTL but thats about it, and obviously the ones youve already talked about. Where do I go to sign up for these ones like Pipex and Blueyonder cos Ive never heard of them before!

:)

[GeeDee]

Originally posted by r3plica
ADSL on the other hand does not. this is because it creates a network protocol called NDiswan (i think thats the right spelling).
The protocol disables the NetBui, and other protocols, stopping you from using the network

wtf? You don't even need NetBEUI installed to access a MS Workgroup! Thats for communicating with l33t OS's like windows 3.11!

MS networking will run over TCP/IP just as your cable / adsl service will.

:D

-GeeDee-

[WhiteKnight]

Originally posted by Ross
OK another question for you all: Considering I don't know much at all about adsl or cable, who all offer adsl because I havent really seen it advertised much? I know BT do and NTL but thats about it, and obviously the ones youve already talked about. Where do I go to sign up for these ones like Pipex and Blueyonder cos Ive never heard of them before!

Goto the BT website (www.btopenworld.com) and somewhere it`ll list all the other ISPs that use BTs ADSL service..

This is because, regardless of the ISP you use, you still need BTs line.

The ISPs are also now allowed to provide a "wires-only" service whereby you can buy the ADSL modem / router to suite your needs. If you opted for one of these, you could get an SMC baracade, or somthing, that is specificly designed to share broadband and ditch crappy ICS all together.

Also.

Cable is 512k down, and 128k up
ADSL is 512k to 2mb down, and 256k up

however.

I have heard that as soon as NTL have rid themselves of the old analoge tv technology, they`ll be upping the rate for cable customers.

and, as someone stated, that can go as high as 40mb/s !!

W00t

but i doubt we`ll see more than about 5mb/s in reality.. not for a few years at least

Oh the slowness !! :D

/me wubs his new 512k cable..

[r3plica]

right here we go, this may start an arg but, hey, so what ;)

I have now decided that my first post in this topic was correct, but, need refrasing.

Unless you have a router hub.....

adsl is **** for ics barring using winXP (seems to work better). Howrever, it has recently come to my attention thru playing around (and reading this forum) that it is possible, so I have managed to do it (using no hardware other than ethernet adapters and the adsl hub) using no programs other than default win ICS.

I found this problematic and not so straight forward... In fact a complete bitch...

whereas,

Cable had no problem connecting to the inernet using ICS...
thats 3 pc's (including this one im sat at :p: ) 2 with winxp and 1 with win98se.

so as I mis-stated b4,

Cable rules....

ps feel free to tell me that im wrong.

[Jez_Gafys]

See this is where R3plica tries to convince everyone that he understands networks, but I know there's many areas of networks that he struggles with. I remember the first time the network was in this pub and they had trouble getting a proxy server working.


I share my adsl conn via winroute pro, ist never crashed on me its not slow and I dont use the ndiswan protacol its all done over tcp/ip behind NAT.

[KermitTheFrag]

On that subject, does anyone know if those Alcatel 510 ADSL routers are any good. I am tempted to get one to go with my pipex DIY ADSL (which will be installed soon I hope - grr etc!)...

I dont want to use winroute/unix variant btw as it requires one of those fugly huge bastard noisy PC things to work ;)

Oh and cable does rule thanks to the fact that its not PPPoA encpasulated which means the packets have to be disassembled at yet ANOTHER layer...

ADSL ping is worse too from experience ... 60-70, whereas cable 20-40ms ... cable is just fancy ethernet after all ;)

[Ross]

OK I found a list of about 50 service providers on this site
www.adslguide.org (http://www.adslguide.org)

From the ratings that have been given it seems Freedom 2 Surf is the best but Pipex next best and also the cheapest!

:D

[KermitTheFrag]

Having had a UUnet / Pipex account until last year (when i switched to cheapy dialup and newnet hosting), I can say that Pipex have never broken on me once (!). Thats since 1994 btw when i had a 14.4k SLIP connection ;)

[SmartMonkey]

Yes I know that the cable modems and switching will support 36Mbit, however none of the cable companys offer anything more than 512Kbit download (although I believe NTL are running a small 4mbit trial).
This rate is actualy controlled by the cable modem, it pulls down a file called ******.** which, if you have the [large amount of]technology can be intercepted and replaced, however this would probably show up in the logs.
and If you really really require 2Mbit adsl the cost is either not important, or is a necessary evil.

SmartMonkey

[bvark]

36Mbit is a theoretical maximum, which is, like every cable modem, shared with everyone else attached to the same cable head-end as you.

It's also dependant on rather better quality cabling and fitting than most US cable rings currently have.

The encapsulation (or not) of cable is hardly a big issue - most DSL modems do the PPPoA in silicon, adding tens of microseconds to the latency.
The main components of latency on any consumer broadband will be serialisation (the amount of time it takes the packet to get down the line - faster line = smaller number) and queuing at some point in the network.

As ever, it's not the technology being used with consumer broadband, it's the quality of the network behind the technology, and the economic decisions the provider has made that count.

Oh, and alcatel 510s are OK if you're not looking for fanciness.

[Ross]

If I am networking 2 pc's together maybe 3 will I be able to do it through a standard ADSL modem???

[werewolf]

you should be able to as long as the machine that is connected directly to it is running ICS or similar software (and the other machines access the net through it).

or you can get ASDL USB routers i beleive (you plug the modem into the router and the pc's into the routers netwoprk ports)

[Lightspeed]

I have NTL Cable at home, and its a very impressive jump from 56k, but I don't have any experience of ADSL to compare with. I usually ping 30-50 to good HL servers. I can also confirm what others have said about sharing the connection: no support, but you are allowed to if you know how. I've got 4 PCs connected with a router currently.

Of course, it doesn't compare to the connection I'm on most of the time, through JANET. My pings here are basically the same as they are at the i-Series LANs. Eg, Quake 3 pings always below 10. :) Not sure what the actual bandwidth of the JANET connection is, but it must be big!

[Cabe]

you think 56 - 512 is a big leap

i went from AOL 56 - AOL33.6 - 512

ahh i can feel the last lingering threads of the disease slipping away....

[Lightspeed]

AOL makes it that much slower? I've never used it. Of course, I'm aware that it is to be avoided like the plague, but didn't realise it made the connection slower too.

[werewolf]

when i was on AOL (back in 99-2000, i was weak and got tempted by unlimietd access for £20 p/m way before NTLWrold etc) it was very sluggish, i beleive everything was routed to America and back.

It was ok for web pages/email/downloads (usually) but instant 400ms+ pings in any online game (the same modem/line later got 150 on NTLWorld).

[Cabe]

i think that its because as soon as an AOL account is created its IP addy is posted to alt.hacker.ping.to.death

[SmartMonkey]

lightspeed,
you normaly on JANET or Super JANET? Janet was fast last time I was on it (1995), but super JANET is way faster and what most academic places use now.

SmartMonkey

[Lightspeed]

Super JANET? I didn't realise there were different versions of it. I'm at Cambridge uni, so I would assume it is the faster version. It's quite amusing when I check the statistics they keep on the bandwidth used per day. It seems like between 5-10% of my college's daily bandwidth usage is down to me (Trinity college - 1000 people). I guess I use about 500 MB per day on average. That is more than some of the smaller colleges use in total!

[Cabe]

I though that Cambridge had a heainous T3 connection?

[Lightspeed]

Single T3 for whole university? Most definitely not.
I think the individual connections to college rooms are capped at about 5 Mbps, because my highest sustained download rates are usually about 600 KB per sec. That would be 10% of a T3 line's connection. If the whole uni was on T3 then I would expect it to get much slower because of all the other users, but it usually runs at the same speed all the time. I think my fastest large-size download was a 1.9 GB movie (LOTR) in 1 hour.

Looking at the data it seems that Cambridge uses about 100 Gigabytes of transatlantic traffic per day, (can't find total figures including UK and Europe etc.). Oh, and also Cambridge is usually in the top 5 biggest users of the JANET network.

[KermitTheFrag]

Heh all this bandwidth talk...

Most Janet primary sites, ie off the London MAN, in 1998 were all running 38Mbit ATM with the MAN being some kind of undocumented `cloud' afaik. Not sure exactly how it worked, as I only ever saw the Brunel end :p: . Its nice to be two hops away from imperial college and their sunsite mirror tho esp at 1.5 Mbytes/sec :D .... http://www.ukerna.ac.uk/ for more info.

btw, Alcatel 510 it is ... not worried about fancy stuff - thats being left for the transparent firewall shoved in the back ... *wubs OpenBSD*...

[Ross]

Kermit Im thinking of getting Pipex seeing as its the cheapest option. Well you tell me what its like once you've got it installed?

Do you have to install Pipex yourself or can they do it for you? Im a bit lazy you see! :p:

[pukka]

if you want to share internet go look at www.smoothwall.org........ it is secure and works fine mine has now been up 80days with out any problems :)

Pukka

see you all at i10..

[SmartMonkey]

Kermit when where you at brunel? I was there a long time ago (pre mosaic) back when it was telnet and ftp or not a lot else!

SmartMonkey

[Dizzie]

the trusty 33.6 modem sorts me out, lol

[KermitTheFrag]

Originally posted by SmartMonkey
Kermit when where you at brunel? I was there a long time ago (pre mosaic) back when it was telnet and ftp or not a lot else!

hehe 1998 ish... spot the staying power *grin*. I did do my "time" with computer services tho and got booted off the system for a couple of weeks at a time for violation of TOS :)

telnet and ftp. some things never changed *choke*. I remember queueing to use a damn Sun Sparc 5 (!).

Did you ever meet a certain Mr Stonham ?

btw, I'll tell people how pipex goes. Gotta pay credit card before I can do that yet ;)

[wishy]

Originally posted by [e38.Dizzie]
the trusty 33.6 modem sorts me out, lol

I'd say that broadband is the best thing since sliced bread. But then i were thinking the other day "What has sliced bread ever done for us". Broadband is BETTER than sliced bread :D

[r3plica]

See this is where R3plica tries to convince everyone that he understands networks, but I know there's many areas of networks that he struggles with. I remember the first time the network was in this pub and they had trouble getting a proxy server working.

firstly, yes networks are not my strong point

i only know what ive experienced and the abbriviation of all protocols etc...
and i have learnt a loads since our networking pc's (1 and half years ogo)

secondly, proxy server, i dont think so - and if i remember correctly (which i do) when we used to connect just 3 pc's (mine, urs james') we used to have probs just setting up a normal network.....

so my post still stands

[MONK]

From what I got told Cambridge had a multi gigabit pipe out to the rest of the net but of course I don't know what the exact setup is, but I would guess a few different connections out.

[KermitTheFrag]

they have lots of cash.... oh wait MS research funds them :)

btw, line test passed for pipex ... I'll post status here as it happens and summarise for "potential customers" in the future. I'll be your virtual guinneapig. :D