Death of the medikit

[Gunsmith]

I was reading up on Project Origin (FEAR2) and I almost dropped the magazine when i heard that they are implementing a regenerative health system into it.

Am I the only one who thinks an RH system is a cheap way of coping out for **** gamers? or does it mean that the rest of the game will be a piss weak consolified version of a classic FPS?

discuss.

[Rob]

halo has it, cod4 has it, therefore any game that has it will be successful....lame :(

[Rippsy]

ps my vote on consoletarded is merely to create some diversity in the votes and is full of sarcasm.

[Omnituens]

everyone knows that the only way to stay alive is to carry at least 1 ring on you at all times.

[Mingtea]

Wow this topic is not in any way biased and one sided.

You really are a small minded ****, to be honest I enjoy playing the game whatever method I am presented with, I lead an enjoyable and fulfilling life.

[Predobear]

Bring back medkits.

Also Invulspheres, and BFG9000's.

[andyf]

Well clearly the challenge will be in not dying during the fight rather than during the downtime.

Isn't this how Ninja Gaiden 2's health system works now?

[Cabe]

Really does depend on the game, in the original F.E.A.R the sometimes sporadic nature of health packs built tension. However to RELY on them to build tension is a (for want of a better explanation) literary crutch. If the game ends up being watered down because of it, then its bad storytelling and pacing on their part.

On the other hand not having to spend the game searching for med packs allows the level designers to concentrate on the flow, rather than "I need to put a secret room here with a pack because round the next corner is a hoard of ravenous zombies"

Speaking of zombies, Left 4 Dead has a couple of new vids - http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=696408 and the revive game play mechanic (seen in a few games, and coupled with the last stand) is particularly rewarding in team games.

[WhiteKnight]

Really does depend on the game, in the original F.E.A.R the sometimes sporadic nature of health packs built tension. However to RELY on them to build tension is a (for want of a better explanation) literary crutch. If the game ends up being watered down because of it, then its bad storytelling and pacing on their part.

I dunno, with medikits, there are points in the game where, unless you cheat or are OMFG ELITE PRO you are almost garunteed to be low on either ammo, health, or both. Personally I think that really should be part of the story, as it adds realism. It annoys me in games where you find ammo and health packs round every corner.

In the real world you dont spontaneously recover from a bullet wound, you need medical assistance. If you fall from a huge height and take massive damage essentially breaking legs or something, you shouldnt magically be able to walk if you sit around for 5 minutes.

That said, anything you could find in a medical box lying around a.n.other office building is unlikely to cure a punctured lung, but at least its "medicine" of some description.

You have to suspend your disbelief at some point, its a game, but I would say this is taking it a "little" too far. I`m not sure I`m going to like this one anyway. I have seen some of the previews and it looks VERY console oriented. This is very much a PC game, and should have stayed that way IMO.

Yes I know about profit margins etc... someones going to mention it.... but I guess I`m a purist. Make games good for gamings sake, not the fat cats who want to sell their product.

[Gunsmith]

I dunno, with medikits, there are points in the game where, unless you cheat or are OMFG ELITE PRO you are almost garunteed to be low on either ammo, health, or both. Personally I think that really should be part of the story, as it adds realism. It annoys me in games where you find ammo and health packs round every corner.

In the real world you dont spontaneously recover from a bullet wound, you need medical assistance. If you fall from a huge height and take massive damage essentially breaking legs or something, you shouldnt magically be able to walk if you sit around for 5 minutes.

That said, anything you could find in a medical box lying around a.n.other office building is unlikely to cure a punctured lung, but at least its "medicine" of some description.

You have to suspend your disbelief at some point, its a game, but I would say this is taking it a "little" too far. I`m not sure I`m going to like this one anyway. I have seen some of the previews and it looks VERY console oriented. This is very much a PC game, and should have stayed that way IMO.

Yes I know about profit margins etc... someones going to mention it.... but I guess I`m a purist. Make games good for gamings sake, not the fat cats who want to sell their product.

http://www.letsgetitright.org/blog/hammer-nail.jpg

[Killy]

Wait we're talking about realism in computer games... what the **** is wrong with you?! :p:

On a serious note I kind of agree with Mingtea, I don't really care that much I've had fun both with and without medkits...

[WhiteKnight]

Wait we're talking about realism in computer games... what the **** is wrong with you?! :p:

I see your smiley, but I would like to retort anyway.

If realism is unimportant in modern computer games, why are ALL the big software houses spending every last penny on getting realism into them ?

Physics engines, Lighting, Advanced AI, Photo realistic textures, Destructable terrain, Ragdoll characters, Interactive machinery... All the things that are being developed and refined to improve our gaming experience.

I totally agree its not "required" to make a good game, one of my favorite games of all time is Super Foul Egg on the Amiga, but you cant have your cake and eat it. There really is no point spending £rofflelol on building the most accurate blood-splatter simulation in any game to date, if your apparently "human" character can just getup and walk away from a pickaxe to the head as long as he "sits down and has a rest". It just doesnt fit.

Fine, if you can work it into the storyline somewhere that some mystical power is constantly feeding your arcane warrior with mana, or some other BS, then its vaguely plausable. But the type of game we are talking about here you are playing a (almost) normal human, in a what appears to be a familure setting.

To pick up on what Rob said. In halo, the "health" regeneration is of the suit, not the character afaik. I havent read ALL the back story, but I`m fairly sure thats the case.

COD4 on the other hand, isnt that supposed to be "real world warfare" ? Ask the guys who came back from Afganistan in a box how long they have to wait to regenerate after a IED took off their left arm, and half their brain.

[Mingtea]

So by your reckoning even Medikits will not do, what you're asking for is possible one shot kills, or if you even manage to limp through the rest of the level at the end is a lengthy rehab in a medical tent, say 2 or 3 weeks.

Sounds pretty boring to me.

[Predobear]

I want a return to the days where realism was non-existant and we all played big strong, manly men with guns the size of small cars.

All that needs to be realistic is the way things go boom, splat, and "blargh", IMO.

[Angelu5]

I vote 3rd option... Depends entirely on the game imo.

[WhiteKnight]

So by your reckoning even Medikits will not do, what you're asking for is possible one shot kills, or if you even manage to limp through the rest of the level at the end is a lengthy rehab in a medical tent, say 2 or 3 weeks.

As i said, you have to suspend your disbelief at some point, it is a game after all. But if they are trying to bring more and more realism into games, and make them more like simulations, adding things like this seems contrary to this trend.


I vote 3rd option... Depends entirely on the game imo.

Yes, yes it does. My point was that a game like this really should be more on the "realistic" side, rather than the "I'm a walking death machine tank thing bring it on".

[Rippsy]

All that needs to be realistic is the way things go boom, splat, and "blargh", IMO.

This man for president!

[Tsung]

It depends on the game, however, I feel it's natual progression to remove medi-kits and move onto health regeneration whilst out of battle in games.

A game is usually made up of a series of encounters, generally its battle -> move -> battle -> move. I see little difference between "a regenerating health bar whilst out of combat" and "finding a medi-kit just in time lying around in the middle of nowhere". I guess regenerating health makes it much more easier to balance the game as each encounter the players will have full health.

I would much rather see limited ammo being used as "tension". In most games you will be carrying 10+ weapons but only ever be using one of them!. With limited ammo you cannot go "guns ablazing" into a fight, you would consider using "pistols" instead of "rocketlaunchers" for mopping up lesser mobs.

For realism I like RainbowShield attitude to health, 2 shots and your dead (pretty much). Get out of fire, and you will recover slowly. It generates enough tension to make you cautious whilst playing. (upon saying that, RainbowShield Health system would not work in a game like serious sam).

So to sum up, it depends on the game if done correctly health regenration is just as acceptable as finding random medi-kits on the floor.

[Neon]

I see it as a non-issue. Gunsmith is NOT representative of the majority of gamers. He is a unique species, probably due to his Japanese style interests that is motivated by challenge and reward of besting the game at the hardest difficulty.

Myself, to draw an appropriate opposite, am not motivated by challenge, but instead by fun. To me a challenge is nice, but getting bested 17 times in a row doesn't make me want to try harder. It usually ends up with me shelving the game and moving on.

I think it's unfair to draw a comparison that these two are pc vs console. It's just not cricket.

I will grant you that console gamers are more casual and generally less dedicated (hobbyists?) than a pc gamer. I agree that the regenerative health systems are not ideal, but I think that you can argue either way. Health packs were always a good idea in my opinion, and I do agree that having to seek out health is part of a game.

However, let's not get confused by focusing on one small element in an entire sea of game mechanics here. For example, Quake2, Doom3 or System Shock, health packs work great here as you are generally skulking around anyway, so it adds suspense. In opposition, something like Halo or Call of Duty 4 works better with a regen system as it doesn't break the flow of the game and allows for a consistent engagement of action rather than shooting a bit and then having to scurry away to restock.

On the realism point raised, other than it being a mild tangent, I don't think it's really relevant. A computer game is a computer game. It won't ever be real, I mean I can imagine the lobbyists having a total field day with a game that's too real.

In summary, you are all right and Gunsmith is just a wierdo elite hardcore difficulty freak :p

[ShedBOy]

I want a return to the days where realism was non-existant and we all played big strong, manly men with guns the size of small cars.
this.

seriously, what happened to games whereby there were actual characters and worlds, rather than "generic hero with gun and moronic team mates"

I WANT FORTY FOOT ZOMBIE WARRIORS WITH GUNS THAT FIRE HOUSES WITH PEOPLE IN THEM THAT HAVE MORE GUNS AND SHOOT YOU THROUGH THE WINDOWS AS THE HOUSE LANDS ON YOU AND CRUSHES YOUR FACE

*cough

sorry, having a frustrating morning. i feel better now :P

[10acious]

Pfft I liked the Op:Flashpoints and Rogue Spears approach to being shot, you're either dead or seriously maimed. There is a repercussion to being shot and you're not going to heal yourself with some box on the floor or by finding a quite corner. A tiny bit more frustrating, but then those games were going for realism.

That said I don't really care on how my health regenerates (if it does), I'd possibly go as far as saying it's the least important aspect of the game I'm playing.

[Gunsmith]

In summary, you are all right and Gunsmith is just a wierdo elite hardcore difficulty freak :p

and for my next trick i shall attempt to catapult myself though the eye of a needle whilst on fire. :p

[Big Giant Head]

I WANT FORTY FOOT ZOMBIE WARRIORS WITH GUNS THAT FIRE HOUSES WITH PEOPLE IN THEM THAT HAVE MORE GUNS AND SHOOT YOU THROUGH THE WINDOWS AS THE HOUSE LANDS ON YOU AND CRUSHES YOUR FACE


I feel strongly that you should make this game.

[Elbonio]

Health packs all the way baby.

[Killy]

I couldn't give a **** about realism in games, most of them **** up the whole fun playability aspect of the game by making it stupidly hard by trying to make it so that it's so realistic that you somehow think by completing the latest Tom Clancy game you feel you can infact sneak into <insert generic building full of evil militia here> and take them on.
I mean it's ******** (pardon the pun) that you've just taken a shotgun round to the testicles and in 2 minutes they'd have regrown, and yes it's not true that a medkit will reattach your balls either but it's certainly more fun to run around with a smear stained crotch killing anything around you with a big **** off house shooting rifle (thanks Shed) knowing that your progeny will also be doing the same thanks to a magical medkit or Wolverine style regeneration abilities. **** you realism.

OK I'm not sure where I was going with the last comment I felt it a bit tangential but the point remains the point of games is to be fun, most of the time the scale of fun tips to realism and it just ****s itself out the window and becomes boring.

[Closing-Gap]

CURSE YOU HALO FOR STARTING THIS! CURSE YOU!

[Pingman]

Pfft I liked the Op:Flashpoints and Rogue Spears approach to being shot, you're either dead or seriously maimed. There is a repercussion to being shot and you're not going to heal yourself with some box on the floor or by finding a quite corner. A tiny bit more frustrating, but then those games were going for realism.

That said I don't really care on how my health regenerates (if it does), I'd possibly go as far as saying it's the least important aspect of the game I'm playing.

I gotta agree, I do prefer the realism. thus I much enjoyed All of the Rainbow Six's and Operation Flash Point.

Original Rainbow six is what got me into FPS gen games, I loved the attention to detail and accuracy of realism (that and HL1 lol) :)

[Vorzac]

If games were super realistic, then people wouldn't have health meters, they'd die instantly from one to three well placed bullet wounds, enemies with pistols could kill you as easily as someone with a machine gun, and being shot in the leg would mean you couldn't walk, ergo not finish the game anyway. That is going to be a big turnoff for casual gamers.
Hyper realism sucks. I'm all for the regenerative system, and have been ever since I played Lands of Lore 3 (the first game I played that implemented regen). the regen system allows you to play strategically, especially if it takes more than five minutes to take your health back to full. Sure, with scripted enemies you can just wander back the way you came and rest for a bit, without fear of attack, but that's why I think Left 4 Dead is going to be a fun game. From what I've seen, zombies actively seek you out in hordes.

So yeah, that's my thoughts on the subject, take it or leave it. I think regen is cool, and makes things easier for casual gamers. that's all I'm saying on the subject.

[Supamunky]

This looks kinda interesting so I'll just put my opinion out.

I think it has to depend on the game as I used to (just not installed yet) play a nice soldier-sim called Operation Flashpoint. Now that game was a cruel and harsh soldier sim. Headshot, yer dead. High calibur shot in the chest, dead. Only way to heal was a medic tent or a field medic (usually mowed down by something like a APC's cannon).

I prefer regen health that regenerates to a degree. Like Condemned 2 or Resistance. It gives a leeway. As you still need medkits to reach full health but you aren't going to end up in a fight with your guts hanging out.

But I do prefer the medkit system more because my question is usually: "Where's the extra health from?" I never got that about CoD4.

[Strych]

If realism is unimportant in modern computer games, why are ALL the big software houses spending every last penny on getting realism into them ?

Physics engines, Lighting, Advanced AI, Photo realistic textures, Destructable terrain, Ragdoll characters, Interactive machinery...

To sell more graphics cards.

[Vorzac]

To sell more graphics cards.

Quoted for Truth