Age limit for alcohol 21 in shops, 18 in bars

[Elbonio]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7455391.stm

Good idea or bad idea?

[CyberDrac]

Not a bad idea in some respects.

My take is that the idea of having a responsible adult serve you and have the ability to refuse to serve you if they feel you have had to much or are exhibiting poor or antisocial behaviour for the first few years of your legal and public drinking is a good idea, it would eliminate the 'standing on the corner' style of drinking we see so much of. It will eliminate the 'lets drink a whole litre of Vodka at home and be violently sick' brigade as well.

I say it's a positive step forwards in altering the attitudes to alcohol consumption in the UK.

CD

[Minidisk]

should just make it sprits not beers

[Steadders]

At first i thought it'd be a good idea, but i think i agree with this comment a lot too:

"This mixed message, that it is ok to drink in pubs and clubs, but that it is not ok to buy something to drink responsibly in your own home, is extremely confusing."

I dislike pub and club binge drinking culture much more than people buying from off liences, but maybe that's just because that's not something we get much around here.

[AdamR]

I like what we currently do at Sainsbury's, "Think 21". When selling alcohol, instead of thinking "is he/she at least 18?" we must think "is he/she at least 21?" If not, ask for ID and accept limited ID's proving 18 or over.

[keroro1979]

At the moment, its actually legal for a 16 year old to drink alcohol - if they are with a person who is older than 18, its a glass of beer or wine, and its with a meal.

But raising the age limit wont make much difference anyway. Under 18s seem to be able to buy it easy enough anyway, so raising the age will just increase the number of under gae drinkers.

[SENT]

most drink bought by people between 18-21 from the offy wont be druynk sensibly at home LOL.

they should make it 21 everywhere except 16 for girls :D

[Shazz]

Seems rather stupid to me. Being that i run the booze section at work, and a good 40% of our customers are in the age range of 18-21

I can only see it annoying retailers, and under age selling become even more frequent.

Personally i think they should increase the tax on it, and use this money to invest in large scale public awareness campaigns. In the long run that's the best solution.

[Squaggs]

I think....there for i am

[Jez_Gafys]

At the moment, its actually legal for a 16 year old to drink alcohol - if they are with a person who is older than 18, its a glass of beer or wine, and its with a meal.

But raising the age limit wont make much difference anyway. Under 18s seem to be able to buy it easy enough anyway, so raising the age will just increase the number of under gae drinkers.


Remember if drinking with a meal the 18yr old must still order the drink and pay, it's still is illegal for under 18 to purchase alcohol.
Also the legal age for drinking alcohol at a private party is a stupidly low 4 years old (irc)!

[RocketKnight]

In fairness, drunk infants are hilarious.

[Shazz]

Not sure of the law as changed in the last 15 or so year but back then the legal age for drinking alcohol at a private party was a stupidly low 4 years old!


I believe it is 5, with parental supervision.

Rather silly law tbh.

[Jez_Gafys]

5 is still low, im sure it 4 though maybe 15 years ago. I bet in this day and age though it would still be frowned upon if a little kid even had a few ml of beer

[Shazz]

5 is still low, im sure it 4 though maybe 15 years ago. I bet in this day and age though it would still be frowned upon if a little kid even had a few ml of beer

That laws in the process of being revised now anyway.

[orange]

I like what we currently do at Sainsbury's, "Think 21". When selling alcohol, instead of thinking "is he/she at least 18?" we must think "is he/she at least 21?" If not, ask for ID and accept limited ID's proving 18 or over.

Yeh we do that in our bar aswell + if we id you.. you only get 1 drink :) :P

[EvilGav]

Pointless new law that wont alter anything, except maybe stop some student parties.

The comments made as well relate to a small town in central Scotland, which is a bit of a toilet anyway.

Sturgeon's comments as well are stupid "we have the highest rising rates of liver disease, almost" - so, we don't have the highest at all, just "almost". Which doesn't explain anything anyway - is it the percentage increase that is almost the highest or is it the total number of liver problems that is almost the highest.

Yet more twatting about with laws that don't need amending in this manner. Yet another case of restricting the members of Britain in what they can do. Yet more legality to justify the ridiculous amount of politicians we have on this tiny island.

[Jez_Gafys]

That laws in the process of being revised now anyway.

That law though is from Children and Young Persons Act 1933, why change now?

[Elkeeed]

We have a lot of trouble round here with teenagers hanging around in parks drinking alcohol that their 18 year old friends bought them. I think raising the age restriction is quite sensible, it would allow people to learn to drink responsibly under supervision in bars and clubs first.

[Pru]

Raising the age limit wont do anything, it just means people will ask others to buy alcohol for a few years longer. (i still have to because i managed to destroy my ID the day after my 18th :()

I started drinking fairly young tbh, but now ive turned 18 i dont have the big "OMG ALCOHOL!" rush, i learnt my lesson the hard way when i was younger. unfortunately some other people would do what i did, and then do it again and again.

[EvilGav]

This is the thing, it's a new potential law, because a minority are idiots.

Why penalise everyone, because there are some idiots in the world ??

Personally, I started drinking under 18 (14 or so regularly), some of the time with my parents knowledge, sometimes not and in the intervening 20 years, I have once come a cropper and been talked to by the police (in my mid-twenties, when I should have known better) and I have never been involved in vandalising anything that wasn't already derelict.

The whole argument of alcohol = bad behaviour is the problem, the people involved were/are idiots whether they have alcohol or not, taking it away annoys other people but doesn't stop the problem people from being idiots.

Alcohol doesn't create thugs/vandals, speed doesn't cause accidents, watching pornography doesn't create rapists. Solve the root cause.

[no friends]

Good idea; no. Reasons; I'm under 21. Caring; no, it's in scotland.

[Big Giant Head]

Yeah but you know it would be hailed as a "sucess" by some metric or other and then introduced down here.

Part of me wonders if swapping the legal age to 16 would actually be a better solution, as people could then make their mistakes earlier ;)

[Elkeeed]

The whole argument of alcohol = bad behaviour is the problem, the people involved were/are idiots whether they have alcohol or not, taking it away annoys other people but doesn't stop the problem people from being idiots.

There is no good reason for under 18s to be buying alcohol. If they were drinking it at home responsibly then theres no reason for their parents not to buy it as part of the weekly shop. The fact is that most of it is getting drunk in parks and on the streets where they are upto no good. The problem is really people who have just hit 18 and think its a great idea to go and buy stuff for all their underage friends. Maybe they should just raise it to 19 or 20?

alcohol = bad behavior is precisely the problem. Plenty of people get upto all sorts of mischief when they are drunk that they wouldn't dream of doing sober.

[Nexus]

I think it would be a good idea, but a better one would be to make it illegal for anyone under 21 to drink in public.


Personally, I started drinking under 18 (14 or so regularly), some of the time with my parents knowledge, sometimes not and in the intervening 20 years, I have once come a cropper and been talked to by the police (in my mid-twenties, when I should have known better) and I have never been involved in vandalising anything that wasn't already derelict.

So presumably when you were drunk you did vandalise property which you say was already derelict. Vandalism is vandalism - and when you are drunk how do you determine what is derelict? Also derelict or not its still anti-social and if you were still making a twat of yourself some ten years after you started drinking you didnt learn your lesson?

I get sick and tired of all the twats near me who on a friday/saturday night who go out get pissed and on their way home they decide to vandalise cars/kick in fences. about 98% of the time its teenagers - so I say bring in law to stop selling to under 21's everywhere. Pubs/clubs/off licenses included.If people cannot control themselves then they shouldnt be able to obtain alcohol. Perhaps have the ability to revoke their over 18 id so they can no longer purchase alcohol some how.

[EvilGav]

So presumably when you were drunk you did vandalise property which you say was already derelict. Vandalism is vandalism - and when you are drunk how do you determine what is derelict? Also derelict or not its still anti-social and if you were still making a twat of yourself some ten years after you started drinking you didnt learn your lesson?

Erm, where I grew up we had a lot of old abandoned WWII gun mounts, which if we were drinking outside of a house, garden or beach party, was where we invariably ended up - those same WWII emplacements have in the intervening years actually been removed almost completely. Completely derelict and had been marked for clearing.

I thought I made it clear, I have once in my life been out of my tree on drink to the point of the police needing to get involved (as in they said if I didn't go home i'd be in the cells over-night on a D&D), which happened when I was more than legally allowed to drink. If that was the first time i'd drunk to that level and was the only time I got in trouble, i'd say that I did learn my lesson.

More to the point, if you make the legal age higher, you make even more people want to try it. If it's illegal, it' something to be tried.

Different subject, but the sentiment is the same :

http://images.shareapic.net/images2/006879872.jpg

[webvictim]

I like the fact that "Think 21" is now in effect. Previously, being asked for ID was almost seen as an insult to the person who was asked, whereas now it's expected and tolerated much more. That makes it a lot easier for shop workers to ask people for ID without fear of getting abuse for it. I got asked for ID when buying four cans of lager in ASDA at lunchtime today - I've actually started taking it as more of a compliment than anything else.

With regard to increasing the age to buy in off-licences, it wouldn't bother me at all because 1) it's in Scotland anyway and I live in England, and 2) I am 23, and therefore old enough to bypass all the age restrictions.

Whatever regulation is passed, there will be critics and advocates. I think that trying to please the people who make a difference (the voters) is the only logical option for politicians, hence why we hear so many lies from them.

[ez64]

Ah brilliant outlook on the subject, It doesnt affect me so **** the rest of you.

[Elkeeed]

I like the fact that "Think 21" is now in effect. Previously, being asked for ID was almost seen as an insult to the person who was asked, whereas now it's expected and tolerated much more. That makes it a lot easier for shop workers to ask people for ID without fear of getting abuse for it. I got asked for ID when buying four cans of lager in ASDA at lunchtime today - I've actually started taking it as more of a compliment than anything else.

'Think 21' makes it fair to give them abuse for asking if you are older than 21 tho. :D Sometimes my friends or I still get ID'd and we're all around 28. If I am in the mood to wind them up I will ask them for ID, that really confuses them. They say 'but you're buying it' and I say 'well you have to be 18 to sell it to me so show me your ID' and they usually won't have it cos most employers don't like them to have their wallets on them so they don't know what to do. :P

[webvictim]

I don't really like the fact that the onus is on the cashier to judge how old someone is. Of course people are always going to try it on, so you need a system - personally I wouldn't be against mandatory production of ID to buy alcohol, whether you're 18 or 80. At least then there would be no stigma about asking for, being asked for, and having to provide identification.

Does this bring us nicely onto the identity card debate...? :D:

[ez64]

They have it in the states its beyond insulting seing a 60 year old teacher asked for ID for a bottle of wine.

It really shows what kind of a country your living in.

[SilentMike]

Every club/bar you enter in Australia your ID gets scanned. Not just for age checking but also for fire regulations. Maybe we could start doing this to try and help combat underage drinking.

[webvictim]

Why is it a problem? If you don't have anything to hide, then what's the issue? It would pretty much cut out underage buying of alcohol - OK, you can't deal with people who are old enough buying it for those who are not, but that would happen anyway.

I don't see what's insulting about being asked for ID even when you're obviously old enough. It's got to be a policy that applies to everyone, otherwise it wouldn't work.

[webvictim]

Ah brilliant outlook on the subject, It doesnt affect me so **** the rest of you.

Creating a thread on something is basically asking me to contribute my opinion. That's my opinion.

[gemini]

Anything that will remove alcohol from the stupid little bams, neds, pikies and chavs that hang around near where I live gets my full thumbs up.

[[TRS]Scotteh]

ID should be asked for all alcohol buying in my opinion anyway, in the states they ask regardless of how old you "look" simply because it's their job to. The same should be here, as has been said, if you have nothing to hide why does it matter if you get asked? The limit should be raised to 21 in off licences for the simple reason that the morons you see on the park with cans of lager will never get into a club or bar anyway. In a club or bar there are usually people monitoring and can throw you out, report you to the Police etc. In the off licence anyone can buy anything, same for the supermarkets but as pointed out they also check now which is good.


It won't solve the problem at all but it might help stop some of the scrotes going into the off licences and buying cans to sit on a park when they are 18. Could just get their mate to buy it but at least it's a step in the right direction in my opinion.

To sum up, bars and clubs are monitored so 18+ is fair enough, off licences aren't unless the person bothers to check and most of the time they don't as shown by plenty of checks.

[keroro1979]

They have it in the states its beyond insulting seing a 60 year old teacher asked for ID for a bottle of wine.

It really shows what kind of a country your living in.

I dont know. Id go with Webvictim on this one. make it mandatory. I wouldnt mind showing my ID if I knew that it meant minors were unable to obtain alcohol.

[Say_Ten]

Raising it to 21 in off-licenses is a crock of ****e tbh. The only people it will affect, pretty much, are students, who can go to their local SU bar and get wasted anyway. The ones sitting around in parks etc. getting wasted and causing problems, they're generally under 18 and so shouldn't have their hands on the stuff in public anyway.

Also, the drinking from an early age allowance, great idea, it allows parents to introduce their offspring to alcohol in a controlled manner. It prevents the, "OMG, I'VE TURNED 18, LETS GET WASTED ON VODKA!" moment. At the end of the day, abusive people will be abusive without alcohol but an abusive person with alcohol is worse. A non-abusive person with alcohol is generally just noisy. Therefore the root problems are abusive behaviour AND poor appreciation of the affects of alcohol, liver damage etc.

[RTO]

In fairness, drunk infants are hilarious.

+rep to you, sir!


Perhaps a better way of 'policing' it however would be to limit the number of units of alcohol in one transaction. I know you could still go round again (and again (and again)) but I don't think the 'yooff of today' really have the staying power for that ;)

It could also be argued that this would encourage more under 21's to go out drinking, after which they can tumble around the streets making a mess.

We as a nation are drawing more and more attention as that of a chavvy, binge drinking nation of teenage pregnancy (even having made the cover of Time Magazine (http://howgoodisthat.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/timel2803_468x624.jpg) - go us! ;)). Perhaps instead of making it more of a forbidden fruit (and hence more attractive) someone needs to look at why it is a problem in the first place?

PS I feel old.

[Shazz]

At least then there would be no stigma about asking for, being asked for, and having to provide identification.

You buy alcohol when you're under 18 = criminal offence
You serve alcohol to someone under 18 = criminal offence
You buy alcohol for someone under 18 = criminal offence

A criminal record, and a hefty fine not enough of a stigma ? ;)

[blackbabyjesus]

this law would change nothing, the kids drinking in the park are more than likely under 18 anyway, they've managed to get it now, they'll manage to get it if the age limit is 21.

[Elkeeed]

I think you miss the point about who is buying it for them.

[Squaggs]

this law would change nothing, the kids drinking in the park are more than likely under 18 anyway, they've managed to get it now, they'll manage to get it if the age limit is 21.

someone who is 16 can look 18 but you someone 19 would look 21.....and am sure (well hope) by that ages kids would have grown out of this fad and grown up......we can all wish

[Baldrick]

I think you miss the point about who is buying it for them.
Being an under 18 who drinks, with a group of friends who are all under 18, it isn't 18 year olds who buy us alcohol. Either we buy it ourselves (some people in shops don't ID, others do, and the ones that do most of the time accept people's fake IDs) or people's parents buy it. I'd say that fake IDs are the main problem, but some places are bringing in scanners to check those.

[gemini]

this law would change nothing, the kids drinking in the park are more than likely under 18 anyway, they've managed to get it now, they'll manage to get it if the age limit is 21.

But they may have a tougher time getting it if its raised to 21. Responsible drinkers wont be put off, but pikey pete will find it harder to get White Lightning. So im all for it.

[Elkeeed]

Being an under 18 who drinks, with a group of friends who are all under 18, it isn't 18 year olds who buy us alcohol. Either we buy it ourselves (some people in shops don't ID, others do, and the ones that do most of the time accept people's fake IDs) or people's parents buy it. I'd say that fake IDs are the main problem, but some places are bringing in scanners to check those.

So are these parents who buy it letting you wander off down the park with it to cause trouble or are they letting you drink it round someone's house because those are two entirely different situations?

Also with respect to fake IDs, its often pretty obvious that they are fake. Its going to be even more obvious if the age limit is raised because the people who are old enough will just go to a bar leaving a big age gap between who is trying to buy it illegally and who isn't. Also, there is already a £1000 fine if you serve someone who is underage, that needs to be enforced more so that people don't use a fake ID as an excuse to look the other way.

[hotline]

well we should have a proper law to stop minors(not in the proper age as stated by law) from drinking. well parents should be penalize too

[SENT]

im 33 and i got asked for ID the other day
its beyond a joke .. the asian guy behind the couter said "we all look the same" ROFL
safe to say i dont go in that shop any more..

[ez64]

the asian guy behind the couter said "we all look the same" ROFL


So I guess he hasnt had his shop wrecked yet?

[Afty]

In my parents generation, they didn't have a major issue with kids binge drinking... sure some minor problems, but NOTHING compared to now.

Back then, kids could often have a drink in the quiet corner of a pub early evening, it wasn't exactly "legal" but it was pretty accepted - and pub landlords would get a slap on the wrist and no serious action taken against them when said actions were discovered. The kids were allowed to take part in society and be a part of it - instead of being treated like babies and rejected from it.

Preventing kids from being part of society creates two problems - there is no "safe zone" like the local pub where they can learn to drink responsibly while having people with a watchful eye make sure things are OK - and it creates resentment on the part of the kids, making them more likely to turn to vandalism, violence, and excess. Common sense trumps stupid laws every single time.

[panda_sam]

I like what we currently do at Sainsbury's, "Think 21". When selling alcohol, instead of thinking "is he/she at least 18?" we must think "is he/she at least 21?" If not, ask for ID and accept limited ID's proving 18 or over.

I hate that "Think 21" thing. Not because of the booze, but because it applies to cigarettes aswell. Many a time I'll just have been nipping to the shop on my way home and not brought my ID as all i wanted were CIGARETTE PAPERS :mad:

Why the hell do i need my ID to buy cigarette papers? Especially if i'm not buying tobacco with them. I can understand why kids don't get sold matches, lighters, etc, but what the hell harm can you do with a packet or rizla? O.o

Maliciously glue them to people when they're not watching?

[Elkeeed]

In my parents generation, they didn't have a major issue with kids binge drinking... sure some minor problems, but NOTHING compared to now.

Back then, kids could often have a drink in the quiet corner of a pub early evening, it wasn't exactly "legal" but it was pretty accepted - and pub landlords would get a slap on the wrist and no serious action taken against them when said actions were discovered. The kids were allowed to take part in society and be a part of it - instead of being treated like babies and rejected from it.

Preventing kids from being part of society creates two problems - there is no "safe zone" like the local pub where they can learn to drink responsibly while having people with a watchful eye make sure things are OK - and it creates resentment on the part of the kids, making them more likely to turn to vandalism, violence, and excess. Common sense trumps stupid laws every single time.

There are too many parents that dont pay enough attention to their kids for this to work. I think they would go wild with the added freedom. Just because there were laxer rules in the past, it does not automatically follow that that is the reason for people to have behaved more sensibly.

I think the problem at the moment is that the kids of today have no respect and know they can get away with breaking the rules that there are. There wern't strict rules about doing this and that in the past but if they were caught then something would happen, they would get a clip round the ear or whatever. But nowadays everyone agrees that they've broken all these strict rules but they walk away with no punishment whatsoever because they are underage and all the political correctness of not smacking them and stuff.

My answer would be to hold the parents responsible for the kids behaviour, then they would soon keep them in line.

[ez64]

There are too many parents that dont pay enough attention to their kids for this to work. I think they would go wild with the added freedom. Just because there were laxer rules in the past, it does not automatically follow that that is the reason for people to have behaved more sensibly.

I think the problem at the moment is that the kids of today have no respect and know they can get away with breaking the rules that there are. There wern't strict rules about doing this and that in the past but if they were caught then something would happen, they would get a clip round the ear or whatever. But nowadays everyone agrees that they've broken all these strict rules but they walk away with no punishment whatsoever because they are underage and all the political correctness of not smacking them and stuff.

My answer would be to hold the parents responsible for the kids behaviour, then they would soon keep them in line.

Its gone past that now though, there are full generations of these people that act worse than there kids.

[TheDon]

In my parents generation, they didn't have a major issue with kids binge drinking... sure some minor problems, but NOTHING compared to now.

Back then, kids could often have a drink in the quiet corner of a pub early evening, it wasn't exactly "legal" but it was pretty accepted - and pub landlords would get a slap on the wrist and no serious action taken against them when said actions were discovered. The kids were allowed to take part in society and be a part of it - instead of being treated like babies and rejected from it.

Preventing kids from being part of society creates two problems - there is no "safe zone" like the local pub where they can learn to drink responsibly while having people with a watchful eye make sure things are OK - and it creates resentment on the part of the kids, making them more likely to turn to vandalism, violence, and excess. Common sense trumps stupid laws every single time.

My dad always tells me about how when he was a kid (around 12ish) he'd get sent the pub over the road for his old man, he'd get a round and then carry it home. 100% illegal, but no one gave a **** that a 12 year old was buying alcohol for his old man because it wasn't going to hurt anyone. Then when he was older he'd be allowed to go the pub with him for the odd pint. The only time the police ever used to turn up was after last orders, when they'd unload out of a van for a lock in.

I think the big difference between now and then is the police were part of the community back then, and law enforcement was done with a bit of sensability about it. If no one was getting hurt and it wasn't bothering anyone then a blind eye got turned, and because of that there was a mutual respect between the kids and police. If you didn't do something stupid then they wouldn't bother you, and if you did then most of the time you'd just get a clip around the ear and warned not to do it again rather than an asbo and a criminal record. These days the police just seem to want to pin something on everyone, regardless of if anyone's actually harmed by things, and as you say that just builds resentment towards the police.

People seem to have forgotten that laws are there to protect the public, so if no one is being harmed by the actions, why enforce them?

I think the problem at the moment is that the kids of today have no respect
But you have to ask yourself, why is there no respect?

Is it because they know they can't be touched, or is it because there's actually no reason to show respect because no matter what the second you step outside the law you're getting arrested?

People are very quick to demand respect these days whilst doing nothing to actually deserve it.

[Reaper]

Raising it to 21 in off-licenses is a crock of ****e tbh. The only people it will affect, pretty much, are students, who can go to their local SU bar and get wasted anyway. The ones sitting around in parks etc. getting wasted and causing problems, they're generally under 18 and so shouldn't have their hands on the stuff in public anyway.

Also, the drinking from an early age allowance, great idea, it allows parents to introduce their offspring to alcohol in a controlled manner. It prevents the, "OMG, I'VE TURNED 18, LETS GET WASTED ON VODKA!" moment. At the end of the day, abusive people will be abusive without alcohol but an abusive person with alcohol is worse. A non-abusive person with alcohol is generally just noisy. Therefore the root problems are abusive behaviour AND poor appreciation of the affects of alcohol, liver damage etc.

Exactly, why punish people under 21 who can drink responsibly? Also if I want to buy beer and consume it by myself at home then it's damn well up to me.

[ez64]

My dad always tells me about how when he was a kid (around 12ish) he'd get sent the pub over the road for his old man, he'd get a round and then carry it home. 100% illegal, but no one gave a **** that a 12 year old was buying alcohol for his old man because it wasn't going to hurt anyone. Then when he was older he'd be allowed to go the pub with him for the odd pint. The only time the police ever used to turn up was after last orders, when they'd unload out of a van for a lock in.

I think the big difference between now and then is the police were part of the community back then, and law enforcement was done with a bit of sensability about it. If no one was getting hurt and it wasn't bothering anyone then a blind eye got turned, and because of that there was a mutual respect between the kids and police. If you didn't do something stupid then they wouldn't bother you, and if you did then most of the time you'd just get a clip around the ear and warned not to do it again rather than an asbo and a criminal record. These days the police just seem to want to pin something on everyone, regardless of if anyone's actually harmed by things, and as you say that just builds resentment towards the police.

People seem to have forgotten that laws are there to protect the public, so if no one is being harmed by the actions, why enforce them?


But you have to ask yourself, why is there no respect?

Is it because they know they can't be touched, or is it because there's actually no reason to show respect because no matter what the second you step outside the law you're getting arrested?

People are very quick to demand respect these days whilst doing nothing to actually deserve it.



+1

[[TRS]Scotteh]

There's no respect not because they don't receive it back it's because they know they can get away with what they like. Absolutely nothing to do with people not showing scrotes respect. Times have changed and not for the better, Police have literally no power to enforce common sense and they are forced to meet targets by making silly arrests thus them receiving no respect from us for doing it.

Vast majority of Police do not want to just "pin something on someone" at all, they are forced to by Governments demanding ridiculous tartgets forcing them to make these silly arrests.

[EvilGav]

Why is it a problem? If you don't have anything to hide, then what's the issue? It would pretty much cut out underage buying of alcohol - OK, you can't deal with people who are old enough buying it for those who are not, but that would happen anyway.

I don't see what's insulting about being asked for ID even when you're obviously old enough. It's got to be a policy that applies to everyone, otherwise it wouldn't work.

I suggest checking out this other thread : http://forums.multiplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59883

And possibly, if you haven't already, read 1984.

It's not about having anything to hide, it's about a pointless law. If they really believe in this, raise the drinking age to 21.

You buy alcohol when you're under 18 = criminal offence
You serve alcohol to someone under 18 = criminal offence
You buy alcohol for someone under 18 = criminal offence

A criminal record, and a hefty fine not enough of a stigma ? ;)

It's not a criminal offence to buy alcohol when you are under 18, it's the seller who is in the wrong. But I take your point.

Unfortunately, the people they want to stop with this sort of law change wear a criminal record as a badge of honour.

In my parents generation, they didn't have a major issue with kids binge drinking... sure some minor problems, but NOTHING compared to now.

Back then, kids could often have a drink in the quiet corner of a pub early evening, it wasn't exactly "legal" but it was pretty accepted - and pub landlords would get a slap on the wrist and no serious action taken against them when said actions were discovered. The kids were allowed to take part in society and be a part of it - instead of being treated like babies and rejected from it.

Preventing kids from being part of society creates two problems - there is no "safe zone" like the local pub where they can learn to drink responsibly while having people with a watchful eye make sure things are OK - and it creates resentment on the part of the kids, making them more likely to turn to vandalism, violence, and excess. Common sense trumps stupid laws every single time.

I'm always wary of comments from parents about how it wasn't such a problem in their day (whether it be drinking, drugs, sex etc etc). The difference today is the all pervasive red top media, looking for the most shocking story. They're not interested in news, they're interested in sales figures, so whatever they can sensationalise this week, they will.

Wasn't that long ago that newspapers and reporters had integrity and wrote a story with heart, not too have the country up in arms about whatever they want.

There are too many parents that dont pay enough attention to their kids for this to work. I think they would go wild with the added freedom. Just because there were laxer rules in the past, it does not automatically follow that that is the reason for people to have behaved more sensibly.

I think the problem at the moment is that the kids of today have no respect and know they can get away with breaking the rules that there are. There wern't strict rules about doing this and that in the past but if they were caught then something would happen, they would get a clip round the ear or whatever. But nowadays everyone agrees that they've broken all these strict rules but they walk away with no punishment whatsoever because they are underage and all the political correctness of not smacking them and stuff.

My answer would be to hold the parents responsible for the kids behaviour, then they would soon keep them in line.

I agree, unfortunately theres more to worry about than just the kids with unruly parents.

When I was a kid I was taught how to act in society, which meant not talking back to adults, not being cheeky and just generally doing what you're told. To that end, my parents could quite happily take me and my older brother to restaurants from a youngish age (7 or 8 for me, my brother is 2 years older) and we wouldn't run around screaming, we wouldn't eat with our hands and we'd generally act like adults.

Compare and contrast to today, where all too often it's seen as ok for the kids to be running around like loons and shouting.

[Elkeeed]

It's not a criminal offence to buy alcohol when you are under 18, it's the seller who is in the wrong. But I take your point.

'It is a criminal offense for an under 18 to buy or attempt to buy alcohol.' Licensing Act 2003

So the buyer has commited an offense even if the seller refuses to serve them.

[Unplugged]

Raising it to 21 in off-licenses is a crock of ****e tbh. The only people it will affect, pretty much, are students, who can go to their local SU bar and get wasted anyway. The ones sitting around in parks etc. getting wasted and causing problems, they're generally under 18 and so shouldn't have their hands on the stuff in public anyway.

Also, the drinking from an early age allowance, great idea, it allows parents to introduce their offspring to alcohol in a controlled manner. It prevents the, "OMG, I'VE TURNED 18, LETS GET WASTED ON VODKA!" moment. At the end of the day, abusive people will be abusive without alcohol but an abusive person with alcohol is worse. A non-abusive person with alcohol is generally just noisy. Therefore the root problems are abusive behaviour AND poor appreciation of the affects of alcohol, liver damage etc.

If anything drinking and limiting alcohol to a pub is a good thing. In a pub or a club the staff can monitor and see when people have had to much and either remove them, notify the police of refuse sale. If someone goes and buys a bottle of vodka from tesco they can drink what they want with no supervision.

If anything the tax should be raised on alcohol and reduced heavily on alcohol served in bars and clubs to discourage people from drinking like twats from the off licence and encourage people into pubs and clubs. This wont sotp people binge drinking as they are going to do that anyway but if people are in the clubs then the staff are going to let them get no worser than falling asleep/throwing up in the lavs and can kick them out if needed.

[Say_Ten]

Given my stag do, you don't need to be the one buying the drinks to get more than wasted. What we need is a culture change, not a legal one.

[RocketKnight]

Indeed, but thanks to all the restrictive laws that we have in place I'm struggling to see how we can have such a culture change. Obviously we could scrap them and start again with a little common sense but thats not how we do things in this country.

[Say_Ten]

Well, three of the police forces, including West Midlands, hence why I know, are trialling policing by common sense! ;p

[Afty]

If anything the tax should be raised on alcohol and reduced heavily on alcohol served in bars and clubs to discourage people from drinking like twats from the off licence and encourage people into pubs and clubs. Clearly, the pub and club scene is responsible for a far better drinking culture, and less associated trouble, than the scene involving me and some close friends enjoying a wine with the meal I cook.

I bow to your wisdom.

[Unplugged]

Clearly, the pub and club scene is responsible for a far better drinking culture, and less associated trouble, than the scene involving me and some close friends enjoying a wine with the meal I cook.

I bow to your wisdom.

Well no if people want to drink then they will. You can remove every pub and club in the country and it will most likely have a very marginable effect on binge drinking. That is our culture im afraid and blanketly increasing alcohol tax has little to no effect on it except encouraging people to buy cheap and laughably strong booze as its cheap and gets them off their tits in about 2 seconds flat.

One thing I noticed at a local club recently when I went out for a friends birthday is since the increase in duty is that they have just simply swapped from Smirnoff to some cheap vodka which is a few % more. You could double alcohol duty tomorrow and it would have zero effect on binge drinking and most likely put every pub out of business as the social drinkers who are usually the sensible ones will abandon them. As you said why go down the pub and pay £4.00 a pint when you can do it at home?

There is no easy solution to this but I would argue that encouraging sensible drinking in pubs where if you are too pissed to stand you get sent home or given a £80 taxi home by the police is probably better than having people getting off their tits wherever on cheap tesco booze and then waking up in hospital the next day after a stomach pump.

Sure people can overdo it in a pub and club too especially if doing rounds but in my experience when people are usually to pissed to stand correctly or end up emptying their guts over the floor they are usually ejected into the street or hands of the police anyway.

[Gumpster]

Seems rather stupid to me. Being that i run the booze section at work, and a good 40% of our customers are in the age range of 18-21

I can only see it annoying retailers, and under age selling become even more frequent.

Personally i think they should increase the tax on it, and use this money to invest in large scale public awareness campaigns. In the long run that's the best solution.

Personally i dont agree, they raised tax on wines/beers & spirits. At the end of the day, Britain has a drinking culture, the only way you can stomp out underage (especially in public) is to put bobbies on the beat round towns, villages and cities. And giving HUGE warnings (and even on the spot fines) to people who are Under 18.

Increasing tax will only alienate normal drinkers further, and will hurt shops/retailers/pubs/clubs. Plus it wont stop people nicking their mum and dads vodka or cider, and wont stop youth's older brothers buying alcohol for them. It just wont work.

I agree with the person who mentioned Sainsbury's "Think 21" idea and many people are IDed, i know in the past i have been IDed in other shops despite looking older than 21, and currently being 20. I also know in the past that the Sainsbury's i work in, ID groups of youths. Personally i was always brought up by my Dad to drink responsibly, and that has worked, i know my limits and i dont like it when my friends go out to get sick, it just ruins a perfectly good night tbh.

Campaigning wont get through to teenagers, but parents with kids around 11/12 it should be aimed at. My dad introduced me to John Smiths at 12/13 and i have always liked it since.

[Jez_Gafys]

Curious how many of you lot are parents and feel it is wrong that you should be penalised fully for your childs actions. A few ppl have mentioned how parents should be at faults if "minors" are caught with alchohol.
Lets say your 15yr old goes out to "play" with mates then a couple of hours later a cop car brings him home for carrying illegal substances, drinking and disturbing the peace. Why should a parent be fined or taken to court what would a parent be expected to do to prevent this, should they keep their kids in doors all day long or go check up on them every 30 minutes.

I think the Children and Young Persons Act needs a total revision, there are lots of laws in there that just seem plain stupid, I think they need to start dishing out some proper hard community services or send them away to perform 12s months of national service or something. As mentioned above they can get away with murder* so why should they give a ****.

I have kids and yeah I'd hate for them to be sent away for a length of time but I agree with the saying "don't do the crime if you can't do the time"

*50 Age of criminal responsibility

It shall be conclusively presumed that no child under the age of [ten] years can be guilty of any offence.

[Gumpster]

Curious how many of you lot are parents and feel it is wrong that you should be penalised fully for your childs actions. A few ppl have mentioned how parents should be at faults if "minors" are caught with alchohol.
Lets say your 15yr old goes out to "play" with mates then a couple of hours later a cop car brings him home for carrying illegal substances, drinking and disturbing the peace. Why should a parent be fined or taken to court what would a parent be expected to do to prevent this, should they keep their kids in doors all day long or go check up on them every 30 minutes.

I think the Children and Young Persons Act needs a total revision, there are lots of laws in there that just seem plain stupid, I think they need to start dishing out some proper hard community services or send them away to perform 12s months of national service or something. As mentioned above they can get away with murder* so why should they give a ****.

I have kids and yeah I'd hate for them to be sent away for a length of time but I agree with the saying "don't do the crime if you can't do the time"

*50 Age of criminal responsibility

It shall be conclusively presumed that no child under the age of [ten] years can be guilty of any offence.

Parents should only be held accountable if they endorse such actions (with the typical "I dont care attitude") and my god we have some really angry parents when kids are caught stealing alcohol from Sainsbury's, so yes when they endorse such actions instead of condeming their children then yes they should be given heavy fines, however, if parents do not know about such actions then no they shouldnt.

Yes a total revision of the youth criminal act etc is needed as we are now seeing kids as young as 13/14 with knives on them. It is desperately needed stomping out.

[webvictim]

Being an under 18 who drinks, with a group of friends who are all under 18, it isn't 18 year olds who buy us alcohol. Either we buy it ourselves (some people in shops don't ID, others do, and the ones that do most of the time accept people's fake IDs) or people's parents buy it. I'd say that fake IDs are the main problem, but some places are bringing in scanners to check those.
Nowhere round here takes anything but a driver's license, passport or Portman proof of age card any more. If you have any other sort of fake ID, they'll take it off you and tell you to sling your hook.

(A far cry from the days when I was 16 and had a £10 fake ID from the Internet - that worked for two years, best thing I ever purchased!)

[webvictim]

I hate that "Think 21" thing. Not because of the booze, but because it applies to cigarettes aswell. Many a time I'll just have been nipping to the shop on my way home and not brought my ID as all i wanted were CIGARETTE PAPERS :mad:

Why the hell do i need my ID to buy cigarette papers? Especially if i'm not buying tobacco with them. I can understand why kids don't get sold matches, lighters, etc, but what the hell harm can you do with a packet or rizla? O.o

Maliciously glue them to people when they're not watching?
I've often wondered why people get IDed for Rizla myself. It seems so random.

[Elkeeed]

Bars here dont even take portman.

On the subject of parents, yes they should be fully responsible. If you can't teach your kids to behave then you shouldn't be letting them roam the streets unsupervised.

[[TRS]Scotteh]

On the subject of parents, yes they should be fully responsible. If you can't teach your kids to behave then you shouldn't be letting them roam the streets unsupervised.

+1

Parents are responsible for their children and a lot of the time you've only got to look at the parents to see why their kids act the way they do. They don't get a decent upbringing and a lot of these parents couldn't care less what they do. Most of the time just leeching off benefits with their 8 kids.

Sad that it's the case but unfortunately it's the way the world works these days it seems.

[Jez_Gafys]

So its only children from poor families or with poor role models of parents that drink under the ages of 18...

[ez64]

No its just the ones that cannot be trusted with drink at any age usually come from the 8 kids and benefits.

[[TRS]Scotteh]

Unless you read a different post that's not what I said is it lol.

I was pointing to the fact of people saying parents aren't too blame for their children when they are. The way children are brought up will obviously have an affect on them as they grow up. I drank under 18, although I did it with my friends away from the likes of parks and public places and I was never in a gutter either. Of course it isn't just limited to poor families, that would be a retarded comment to make. However a lot of the time it IS poorer families which unfortunately puts a bad light on those families and parents who truly do their best to bring up their children under difficult circumstances. Then there are those who just don't care regardless and they can be from any background whether it be poor, middle or upper class, it's just a sad truth that a lot of the scrotes you see on parks pissed up come from families who are worse off.

[Elkeeed]

So its only children from poor families or with poor role models of parents that drink under the ages of 18...

Or middle class families where the parents are too busy to pay any attention

[Jez_Gafys]

I drank under 18, although I did it with my friends away from the likes of parks and public places and I was never in a gutter either.

Why did you drink at that age, did your parents fail to give you a proper up bringing did they not teach you that breaking the law is not the way to go.

You said it yourself

They don't get a decent upbringing


Let says you are in the house drinking with m8s and the music is a bit loud, a neighbour asks you to turn it down but you ignore their request, they then goes on to call the police who when they come round they find a house full of 15yr olds all pissed ... the parents are contacted and these leads to fines or what ever.

Fair enough you might refer to a group of ppl in a local park pissed up and chucking bottles about and swearing buts it's all illegal and caused a disturbance in one way or another.

I'm saying that you can't always point the blame on the parents, they could do everything in their power to provide a good upbringing, but peer pressure etc forces the child who wants to fit in to drink or smoke etc well under the legal age.

[gemini]

Why did you drink at that age, did your parents fail to give you a proper up bringing did they not teach you that breaking the law is not the way to go.

You said it yourself




Let says you are in the house drinking with m8s and the music is a bit loud, a neighbour asks you to turn it down but you ignore their request, they then goes on to call the police who when they come round they find a house full of 15yr olds all pissed ... the parents are contacted and these leads to fines or what ever.

Fair enough you might refer to a group of ppl in a local park pissed up and chucking bottles about and swearing buts it's all illegal and caused a disturbance in one way or another.

I'm saying that you can't always point the blame on the parents, they could do everything in their power to provide a good upbringing, but peer pressure etc forces the child who wants to fit in to drink or smoke etc well under the legal age.

I can see where you are coming from in that its not always the parents fault that their child is a complete toerag.

But, when I was under 18 I almost never drunk any alcohol. This was because I was **** scared of the consequences of getting found out. The punishment from my mum. If I was found in a state like some of the kids round here I would have had such a hiding that the fear of the consequences was enough to keep me off it until I turned 18.

If this was repeated amongst others then the problem with underagers would just go away.

A good article on parenting. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat)This was basically how I was raised, fall out of line, loads of earache, a smack and a few days without something I enjoyed (mates round, Nintendo, sweeties on Fridays).

If more of the kids nowadays had that fear of consequences, and respect for other peoples property then we would instantly live in a much better place.

[Jez_Gafys]

Would you have drunk more if you knew parents not wouldn't but couldn't do anything?

Parents now a days can't smack their kids without the social breathing down their necks, there seems to be too much protection for children that like mentioned above respect is out of the window.

My almost 3yr old daughter can be a painn screaming and having a tantrum ... is that because of something I did while she was growing up, why does she ignore me when I tell he to stop screaming and being a pain, I feel I have given everthing to her and tried everything in my power to bring up the perfect princess but something must be wrong?

[[TRS]Scotteh]

Why did you drink at that age, did your parents fail to give you a proper up bringing did they not teach you that breaking the law is not the way to go.

You said it yourself




Let says you are in the house drinking with m8s and the music is a bit loud, a neighbour asks you to turn it down but you ignore their request, they then goes on to call the police who when they come round they find a house full of 15yr olds all pissed ... the parents are contacted and these leads to fines or what ever.

Fair enough you might refer to a group of ppl in a local park pissed up and chucking bottles about and swearing buts it's all illegal and caused a disturbance in one way or another.

I'm saying that you can't always point the blame on the parents, they could do everything in their power to provide a good upbringing, but peer pressure etc forces the child who wants to fit in to drink or smoke etc well under the legal age.


I drank at that age because I was taught to drink responsibly and I wasn't doing it at 14/15, I was 16/17 round friends' houses, not on the streets being abusive and just a general little sh*t. When your brought up around the Police Force you know the consequences of your actions and if I was ever out of line I certainly knew about it.

Blame isn't always on the parents, however it ultimately lies with them, they are the parents at the end of the day. You will always have kids who disobey their parents regardless of how hard they try, you then have to ask why that is?

There is a big difference between people who hang around on the streets or on the park getting p*ssed up and those who were brought up to drink responsibly and treat others with respect and most of the time the difference IS the parents. Minorities of kids who are just nasty and think getting p*ssed all the time is "cool" will always exist but a child who has had a good upbringing is going to be less likely to end up with a criminal record.

Going back to the actual topic title, kids who buy alcohol in the shops are more than likely going to fall into the "street" drinkers category as it is far easier for them to walk into the off licence and buy cans than it is to go into a pub and get a drink. It won't stamp out the problem of binge drinking but it will at least make it harder to achieve. Most places I go now are "Think 21" style anyway and a lot of bars I go won't allow anyone under 21 in either.

[ez64]

I can see where you are coming from in that its not always the parents fault that their child is a complete toerag.

But, when I was under 18 I almost never drunk any alcohol. This was because I was **** scared of the consequences of getting found out. The punishment from my mum. If I was found in a state like some of the kids round here I would have had such a hiding that the fear of the consequences was enough to keep me off it until I turned 18.

If this was repeated amongst others then the problem with underagers would just go away.

A good article on parenting. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat)This was basically how I was raised, fall out of line, loads of earache, a smack and a few days without something I enjoyed (mates round, Nintendo, sweeties on Fridays).

If more of the kids nowadays had that fear of consequences, and respect for other peoples property then we would instantly live in a much better place.

Ah the lovely do what I say and respect me or ill hurt you, true some of the kids now will not respond to anything else but its not the way to go.

[gemini]

Ah the lovely do what I say and respect me or ill hurt you, true some of the kids now will not respond to anything else but its not the way to go.

It's people like you are the reason why so many kids today are lazy thickies. Because they have not been taught any respect, discipline or most crucially, fear of consequences.

Perhaps you would like to treat the kids better. Perhaps you think we should take all the little numbskulls who drink themselves into hospital on weekends and perhaps sit them down with a psyciatrist and figure out why they did it. Perhaps you could understand why and mabey buy them a new videogame so tehy dont do it again.

Or, you could teach them to fear consequences of doing wrong and breaking the law. And the quickest, and by far the most effective way to do this is with a smack round the arse and a few days away from something they enjoy.

May I ask how your parents disciplined you when you were growing up ?

***EDIT***

As a quick edit taking it back on topic, I still believe that 21 in off licences and 18 in bars would be a positive step forward in removing alcohol from underage punks. Yes it would make it a bit harder for some people (me included) to get something alcoholic to drink, but I would quite happily do without alcohol for a few months (or even up to three years) if it would mean that I would have less drunken neds wandering around my street at stupid hours.

[ez64]

Ah please shutup "people like me", since were making vague assumptions your a member of the nazi party right?

I said some of them dont respond to anything else but there are some decent kids out there that dont need beatings round the head to learn a lesson.

Its pathetic how you see someone make a post vaugely on the side of not beating the kid and then post something you have said to yourself 50 times, OH its you bloody people with a light touch bla bla bla.

[gemini]

Ah please shutup "people like me", since were making vague assumptions your a member of the nazi party right?

I said some of them dont respond to anything else but there are some decent kids out there that dont need beatings round the head to learn a lesson.

Its pathetic how you see someone make a post vaugely on the side of not beating the kid and then post something you have said to yourself 50 times, OH its you bloody people with a light touch bla bla bla.

Im not talking about beatings. Im talking about a telling off, and a few days of no football / world of warcraft / scouts / cadets / sweets etc. Thats not a beating. Thats a fair punishment for when a child steps out of line and does something they shouldnt have. And I would say that underage drinking in the park is one of these things.

Would you have drunk more if you knew parents not wouldn't but couldn't do anything?

But the point is my parents could do anything, and they would. When they smacked me, yes I could have gone to the social services from a legal standpoint. But then what?

Foster Care. It's hardly progress.

My point is that I think that if more parents were like mine, we wouldnt have the problem of underage drinking and this subsequent proposals for being 21 to buy alcohol in off licences. But seeing as that is not the case raising the limit should at least make it harder and should cutdown on the number of people underage drinking, which is the overall objective of the plans.

[Pru]

My point is that I think that if more parents were like mine, we wouldnt have the problem of underage drinking and this subsequent proposals for being 21 to buy alcohol in off licences. But seeing as that is not the case raising the limit should at least make it harder and should cutdown on the number of people underage drinking, which is the overall objective of the plans.

I pretty much agree with this tbh, i used to get smacked all the time when i was younger, i knew damn well if i was naughty my mum would be very angry and tbh there was some level of fear. (which is mildly still there today in me and my brother) Not to the point i was really scared and i would run away etc, but enough to respect her and if i made her angry to stay well out of her way once she'd told me off. I havent grown up being a little **** drinking on street corners. I can now drink responcibly, look after myself, not get in trouble with the law etc. Although i dont mean to say this is a total cure, but so many children need more disipline.

[Elkeeed]

I agree with smacking them if they have been really bad but most of it is just psychological. I see kids throwing a tantrum to get something they want and the parents give it to them to make them shut up. Spoiling your child like this is a big reason they do not think of the consequences or take responsibility for their actions. I learnt at a very early age that throwing a tantrum would get me exactly nothing of what I wanted. So yes Jez if your 'perfect princess' has not learnt that yet then you are doing something wrong. Its the carrot and the stick, not just the stick.

[Jez_Gafys]

So yes Jez if your 'perfect princess' has not learnt that yet then you are doing something wrong. Its the carrot and the stick, not just the stick.


How ****ing dare you insult my parenting, Im doing everything by the "book" it's not as easy as ABC you know, they don't have a tantrum and then when nothing happens think to themsleves "ah well was worth a try i'll go sit down in the garden and make a daisy chain and play nicely".

Maybe when you have you kids you'll understand until then shut up!

On a side note more relating to the thread, where is this country going when youths who cause a disturbance aren't punished ... but are offered free pizza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/7446267.stm

[[TRS]Scotteh]

Woooooooah calm down calm down ladies lol. This is supposed to be a constructive thread :p

At the end of the day Jez your daughter is only 3, all 3 year olds act up lol. How they act as they get older will be the real example as to whether or not you've done a good job :) Just enjoy it whilst she's young anyway as all kids turn into little sh*ts at some point or another :awesome:

I hate the phrase "You used to be so sweet when you were little boy".....lol



As for rewarding youths who cause a disturbance, no surprise there. I just love the 21st century, so many things on so many subjects have worked fine for the human race for thousands of years. Yet as soon as the 21st century hits everything is all wrong......well.....lets look at society shall we and then judge which era had it right, certainly not this one with the lack of discipline with children, no Police powers, an NHS which is in a right state for a number of reasons etc, list goes on.

[Elkeeed]

How ****ing dare you insult my parenting

You can't have it both ways! Either shes a good example or a bad one.

Im doing everything by the "book" it's not as easy as ABC you know, they don't have a tantrum and then when nothing happens think to themsleves "ah well was worth a try i'll go sit down in the garden and make a daisy chain and play nicely".

If they just did what they were supposed to then it wouldn't be called learning. I am sure it is hard, thats why a lot of parents don't bother.

I am not saying you are a bad parent, but I'm sure there have been things you could have done better or looked back on and thought you should have done differently. I would be surprised if any parent could claim that as the case, there is always room for improvement. So to use yourself as an example of a perfect parent who has raised some demon child that you would be afraid of taking responsibility for is a bit ridiculous.

[Jez_Gafys]

I am not saying I have a demon child but like every child they have tantrums when they can't have something, if you tell them no and dont give into them they scream even louder. You can try things like "naughty steps" but children are smarter then you think they learn that if they end up on step just be quiet for a bit and say sorry and they can then go, a hour later then do the same thing. Maybe they would learn better if the step was out in the garden in the cold a place they don't want to visit but you just can't do that.

When I was young like others I stepped out of line and I got the beats you just can't do that now a days, even a light smack is frowned upon. Because of this a lot of children tend to scream and shout knowing that normally they will get what they want because as a parent you generally have little choice. Its even harder when you have 2. You think how hard it is you trying to give a 6 week old baby a feed and your 3yr old is screaming for something, maybe just simple a toy fell down the back of a sofa then she starts asking for "choc", then the baby starts to cry sometimes the easist and ONLY option is to get the toy and give them what they want.

[Elkeeed]

So out of interest when they scream louder then you do give into them? There is the option of just letting them scream till they get tired of it.

[Afty]

sometimes the easist and ONLY option is to get the toy and give them what they want.It might be the easiest, but it's not the only, and it's (IMO) wrong. Let them scream as long as they like. Pretty quickly they will learn that it gets them nothing.

[Jez_Gafys]

We have tried both, normally we take the out of the room and sit them on the bottom step in the dining room and close the door but this doesn't seem to do anything she might stop screaming and say sorry but an hour or later its all over again.

When you are in supermarkets etc and they start to scream you can't just leave them alone it doesn't work like that, you know how it is other ppl are staring and tutting wich then starts to stress you out.

It's so easy for ppl to say how they would raise children and how certain practices are wrong, but trust me that all changes when you are actually dealing the situation.

[Elkeeed]

If I threw a tantrum in public my mum always threatened to take down my trousers and smack my bottom in front of everyone. And I knew not to scream for too long because she would have done it. :P

[[TRS]Scotteh]

If I threw a tantrum in public my mum always threatened to take down my trousers and smack my bottom in front of everyone. And I knew not to scream for too long because she would have done it. :P

I got a swift smack across the back of the legs if I was being a brat lol. Fully deserved and when I look back on it I really do feel sorry for my parents sometimes lol. Although I wasn't smacked that often when I was I always deserved it. Never did me any harm and I feel I've been brought up well, I'm always commented on my manners etc and I feel my parents did a good job.

It's definitely not easy though and I certainly wouldn't think it is. I'm just dreading the day I become a parent, not because I don't want children but because the Government and society in the 21st century make it so difficult to bring up your children properly and teach them discipline and respect.

[Jez_Gafys]

Government and society in the 21st century make it so difficult to bring up your children properly and teach them discipline and respect.

Thats kinda hit the nail on the head, if I tried to smack my little one in the middle of the supermarket, some person is sure to complain then you have the police the social and NSPCC on your door. You have to pussy foot around children and from an early age they know it and use it to their advantage to attempt to walk all over you.

[Gumpster]

I got a swift smack across the back of the legs if I was being a brat lol. Fully deserved and when I look back on it I really do feel sorry for my parents sometimes lol. Although I wasn't smacked that often when I was I always deserved it. Never did me any harm and I feel I've been brought up well, I'm always commented on my manners etc and I feel my parents did a good job.

It's definitely not easy though and I certainly wouldn't think it is. I'm just dreading the day I become a parent, not because I don't want children but because the Government and society in the 21st century make it so difficult to bring up your children properly and teach them discipline and respect.

More importantly more so than the Government, but the Think Tank "Do gooders" who say people shouldn't smack their children, but im sorry, i was brought up like that by Mum n Dad, and they told me if i touched anything whilst shopping they would give me a smack. Although looking back on things now, mum never really smacked me, she just threatened me with it (apart from a few times, especially later on when i was 14 and pretended to be my dad on the phone to a teacher who was ringing up).

[EvilGav]

The goody-goody crowd who got smacking banned, did so to stop parents beating their children, or so the claim goes.

However, beating your child was already illegal, before the new legislation came into effect. The new legislation has lesser punitive measures than pre-existing law.

So they criminalised more people, with lesser charges, which are therefore more likely to get a conviction.

Welcome to Stalinist Britain.

Truth, Justice, Liberty ?? We've heard of them.

[Gumpster]

The goody-goody crowd who got smacking banned, did so to stop parents beating their children, or so the claim goes.

However, beating your child was already illegal, before the new legislation came into effect. The new legislation has lesser punitive measures than pre-existing law.

So they criminalised more people, with lesser charges, which are therefore more likely to get a conviction.

Welcome to Stalinist Britain.

Truth, Justice, Liberty ?? We've heard of them.

So whats your view on what Judges want to do about Annoynmous statements/witnesses in court. Im shocked at this upturn in the Criminal Justice System, there is a reason for such a programme, and that is to stop criminals getting to victims & witnesses. More rights to criminals, next human rights activists will be telling us that Amil Hamad (or whatever his name is) should be telling people to consider his human rights.

This country is breaking down, i feel in 10 years time (if things aernt done asap), we will have criminals who can get away with murder, immigrants who over run the country, no jobs for British people, bullying in schools through ethnic miniorities, and lack of respect between neighbours etc etc, and we will be apart of the new look EU through the Lisbon Treaty, where does it stop.

This country has a brilliant history, but our future looks bleak at present (or at least from where im sitting).