HLStatsX

[Parva]

As many of you will have now seen, we have HLStatsX up and running. This is running on servers 1 - 17 so regardless of which of these servers you join you will accumalate points.

I'll see how things go but settings currently are 1 point per kill all weapons except melee. All melee weapons are set at 1.25 per melee kill so every 4 kills gets you an extra point. :) I was almost tempted to go a bit higher but realised that a 30 player Lazytown server with everyone running around with baseball bats and shovels may be fun initially but would soon wear off. So, if you know someone is near death, switch to the bottle or bonesaw or whatever for that extra bit of goodness. :)

First of all, the link to the website where you can view all of the stats is http://tf2.multiplay.co.uk/hlstats/hlstats.php

Note that deleting back to the main url itself (tf2.multiplay.co.uk) currently does nothing, we're in the throes of sorting out a proper community website for that.

Ingame there are a few commands. Simply type these as you would start a normal chat message.

statsme - Opens Steams internal browser to give you a snapshot of your stats from the website.

place - This gives you your current ranking

rank - This gives more detailed information about your current ranking.

I hope you all enjoy this gameplay addition. As ever, I'm always open to suggestions (or bribery). :)

Enjoy.

[swarfega]

Great work there parva!

[Motoko]

Looks great Parv ;) I know you and others put a lot of work into it, so it's nice to see your efforts come into fruition!

~Moto

[Chunkylover!]

I played 2 or 3 multiplay servers last night and, unless it's a coicindence, i found HLStats to give me quite a laggy feel. This was especially true of playing engineer where it seemed I was missing sounds i.e. when i was hitting my buildings, it was 50/50 whether they would make the clonk sound when me spanner landed. Although not crucial, I rely heavily on these noises so I know I'm actually building while I'm keeping an eye out on the rest of the action.

Anyone else find the MP servers to "feel" different now HLStats is on?

[Parva]

I must say a big thanks to liv3d and Dave for playing a big part in getting this going, I'd never have got to this stage without their help and also help from several other people who were involved at various stages.

Regarding the 'lag' issue, I myself did experience a little occasionally but at the time I just put it down to me. I'll look into this as I'm aware of several changes that could be made to alleviate this. Thanks for the input chunky.

[Ypsy]

Great Job Parv, Dave and liv3d :-)
There are a lot of people on the servers who dont like stats but I do (and I think the majority of the ppl playing) ;-)
There have been some more complainings about lags the last days but I havent experienced any yet. Cant imagine it has to do anything with hlstatsx. :-)

[Chunkylover!]

Regarding the 'lag' issue, I myself did experience a little occasionally but at the time I just put it down to me. I'll look into this as I'm aware of several changes that could be made to alleviate this. Thanks for the input chunky.

yerh, MP servers have always been perfect for me even while other players around are complaining of lag issues. was perfect sunday and monday night - gone a bit odd last night. obviously the only difference i noticed was HLStats been added and associated it, but it may have been something else behind the scenes.

If you make any changes today/tonight let us know as i will probably try get on tonight and will be able to let you know as it was definitely noticeable to me. other than that i'll be off skiing for a few days so won't get a chance in the short term which is a PITA as my stats will be WELL behind the likes of badger, byte, medic and the other regs on dustbowl :( :(

btw, i'm ambivoulant about the stats. i quite like them in some personal respects (like browsing the web site the next day while at work), but i hate people on HLStats servers who play to them for example people building and destroying stuff just to get high "build" stats and other things like it. Also people spamming the text with HLStats commands annoy the tits off me :) Also, I must remember to stop doing "explode" at the end of a round so my suicides don't start racking up REALLY high :)

that said, many thanks for such good proactive server adminning :D

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

Ok,
I think the work that has been accomplished for the HLStatsX by the team is great.
I think the the stats thing works with alot of players making things that bit more competative and pulls the game together as a whole to strengthen the community. Also they are good fun :)

On a side note though i must say that the info screen showing points when killed e.t.c is INCREDIBLY annoying. I think this would work better if those stats didn't display. Maybe take them off and only have them running when someone entered a command i.e /rank like in the old CS 1.6 days?

Bassically stats - screen spam unless prompted by user = good.

At the moment = slightly annoying :)

Maybe because i am old and like to moan? :P

[Chunkylover!]

FYI, just left 02 with no stats on and no aparent lag. don't just take one report of lag/no lag from me though :)

[liv3d]

I played 2 or 3 multiplay servers last night and, unless it's a coicindence, i found HLStats to give me quite a laggy feel. This was especially true of playing engineer where it seemed I was missing sounds i.e. when i was hitting my buildings, it was 50/50 whether they would make the clonk sound when me spanner landed. Although not crucial, I rely heavily on these noises so I know I'm actually building while I'm keeping an eye out on the rest of the action.

Anyone else find the MP servers to "feel" different now HLStats is on?


Hi,
Can you re-check the servers with stats on them I've changed a few settings so hopefully it shouldn't give you that laggy feel, if you can recheck at some point & let me know if thats better or worse :)

[steve1]

Great work.

Fame at last! (if fame is being 1100th on the list) ;)

[Breath]

Finally I can see how many times i've 0wned Parva :P

Congrats to everyone involved!!! :D

[Spikx]

Halp! #0000FF on dark background hurts :D

[Chunkylover!]

Hi,
Can you re-check the servers with stats on them I've changed a few settings so hopefully it shouldn't give you that laggy feel, if you can recheck at some point & let me know if thats better or worse :)

my previous bad experience was on a full 24 player dustbowl server. however, i've just tried the full ctf_turbine server as engi and no problems. i then joined the 28 player dustbowl server and also had no problems BUT there were only 8 players on.

so far so goody. i'll try play again later (wifey time atm) and see if i can find a packed dustbowl with hlstats running.

:)

[Parva]

Halp! #0000FF on dark background hurts :D

I had a bit of a problem with that. The issue is that whatever colour gets set on the player stats page (#FFFFFF was default) also gets set on the player stats on the servers page. The result was that you couldn't see the white text on the pale blue and pale pink backgrounds so it was a bit of a compromise in the end. :( I'll look into tweaking that further at some point, just wanted to get it up and running initially.

[Spikx]

I see. Can you alter the template somehow to assign CSS classes to those tables with white background in order to define different anchor styles for them?

[Parva]

I see. Can you alter the template somehow to assign CSS classes to those tables with white background in order to define different anchor styles for them?

Before I mess further try that, I've lightened it slightly so that it's better readable in player stats but still readable on the player stats displayed under the servers tab.

[Chunkylover!]

the 28 player dustbowl with HLStats has definitely got no lag issues for me tonight, just played a round when it's been totally full.

[Parva]

It's still not fixed but I can see what the problem is. I've left a message for liv3d about it, hopefully fixed soon.

[bigguns]

This is a great addition to a great community, gj guys!

(btw, There was some strange lag last night on the Multiplay servers, around 10-11 oclock. However, no such problems later on after 12...)

anyway, thanks again

[kr-dm1]

So these stats are a permenant thing ? On all servers ? Because I find them horrendously annoying. I was on Allmaps earlier with a group of like-minded people who kindly demonstrated how abusable the system in place is. For example, engineers get points for building a building, okay. Why on earth would they also get points for demolishing their own building !

Seriously, it was just engineers going from the entrance of the base to the stockpile in the base and back, building stuff and wiping it. Consequently, this stats thing is entirely useless, as there seems to be absolutely no way to prevent this kind of statpadding, which is something that I thought I'd left behind with Battlefield2. Frankly it's making me question playing TF2 at all, which is a shame as I like the MPUK servers :( At least try and keep some servers pure, just for the people like me please :)

[maDDin]

So these stats are a permenant thing ? On all servers ? Because I find them horrendously annoying. I was on Allmaps earlier with a group of like-minded people who kindly demonstrated how abusable the system in place is. For example, engineers get points for building a building, okay. Why on earth would they also get points for demolishing their own building !

Seriously, it was just engineers going from the entrance of the base to the stockpile in the base and back, building stuff and wiping it. Consequently, this stats thing is entirely useless, as there seems to be absolutely no way to prevent this kind of statpadding, which is something that I thought I'd left behind with Battlefield2. Frankly it's making me question playing TF2 at all, which is a shame as I like the MPUK servers :( At least try and keep some servers pure, just for the people like me please :)

Hes right look at 1st 2 places in stats. Just engis building and destroying their buildings :/

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

I am not as negative about HLStatsX as i was before but i still think the hud display is incredibly annoying!

Also i was absouloutly astonished to see higher ranked people getting MORE points per kill on lower ranking people.....i mean honestly shouldn't it be the other way around? Seem like you are chasing a never ending twine ball otherwise >.<

[Parva]

I think I've discovered what causes the lag and the fix should please many people when implemented. I shall also fix this naughty little exploit that the engineers have discovered immediately! :)

[Parva]

Also i was absouloutly astonished to see higher ranked people getting MORE points per kill on lower ranking people.....i mean honestly shouldn't it be the other way around? Seem like you are chasing a never ending twine ball otherwise >.<

Maybe you should have a chat with Maddin then. He managed to get as high as 5th and noticed that he was only getting two points for kills yet others were getting as much as 8 points for killing him. Generally, the higher you climb up the leaderboard the less points you get per kill and the more points others gain for killing you.

[maDDin]

Maybe you should have a chat with Maddin then. He managed to get as high as 5th and noticed that he was only getting two points for kills yet others were getting as much as 8 points for killing him. Generally, the higher you climb up the leaderboard the less points you get per kill and the more points others gain for killing you.

Managed it to get to 5th place yesterday evening and i only got abt 2 till 3 points per kill. Other players got 9 for killing me! Dont really understand the system as sometimes a new player with abt 1000points got only 2p for killing me :s
Dont know if that only happens to me: If you do 'statsme' you get that browser showing you statpage. If you close it, kill some players and get some points and then do statsme again the same site in brower gonna show up with same (old) stats as before. Problem: You cant refresh that site. Theres no link or button and F5 or other shortcuts wont work for me :p

[Spikx]

So these stats are a permenant thing ? On all servers ? Because I find them horrendously annoying. I was on Allmaps earlier with a group of like-minded people who kindly demonstrated how abusable the system in place is. For example, engineers get points for building a building, okay. Why on earth would they also get points for demolishing their own building !
You can turn it off by typing hlx_display 0.



But my question is... is there a way to turn it off permanently? Everytime you join a server, you'll have to type in hlx_display 0 again :|.

[Parva]

I'm pretty sure that's an issue with Steams in-game browser. It appears to have its own cache and as you say, there doesn't seem to be any way of flushing it. I came across this problem whilst we were sorting the MOTD out, several times a small change had been made that didn't show in Steams browser. :(

[Parva]

You can turn it off by typing hlx_display 0.



But my question is... is there a way to turn it off permanently? Everytime you join a server, you'll have to type in hlx_display 0 again :|.

You won't have to. I'm going to turn off the reporting as this is what is causing some server lag, particularly on captures. The stats will still work and update constantly, there will just be no on-screen reports of 'A killed B and got x points'.

[Spikx]

Very good, thx :)

[leahcim]

I think I've discovered what causes the lag and the fix should please many people when implemented. I shall also fix this naughty little exploit that the engineers have discovered immediately! :)

I noticed a couple of people, myself included, appear to have -10 for dropping the flag but only 5 for picking it up?

e.g 15 pick ups - 75 points, 14 drops, -140. Which suggests that going for the intel has lost points? I'd expect 5 [or perhaps 10] points for that, for the single capture?

I assume that it is supposed to effectively be zero for picking flag and then dropping and these should both be +/- 5 [or 10]?

Also on the achievements page it says I've captured the flag 15 times, when I'm sure that's just picking it up not actually capturing, which I assume [from the figures above] I've only done once.

Also, I seemed to have points for attaching a sapper without playing spy [I assume this is just an incorrectly label and those 12 points were really for engineer removing a sapper?]

Others have mentioned not liking the stats. I don't mind the stats so much as the way people often change their play because they are there when the game is, imo, not about killing per se.

TBH it seems fairly trivial to show what the stats will show anyway...just order the people playing using the following factors :-

(a) Their graphics card / computer spec
(b) The class they choose
(c) The number of hours they've played that class
(d) A fudge factor of attack / defence stance
(e) How much time you play on the server

...and that'll give you your order, with only a few exceptions.

Given that only 2 out of the 5 are down to the way the player actually plays [and one of those has more to do with gaming the stats than playing the game imo] that's why I don't like them.

And it's not because I'm unaffected by them either, I'm not being holier than thou here. As others have said hlstats is noisy and the stats are pushed in our faces as we play and, I'm sure it's not just me but if there's a page telling me how many times I've typed the letter 'e' or how many miles I've moved my mouse I'm going to look.

From there it's a short step from looking at the stats to letting them take over. Typing "elephant" all the time or wiggling the mouse to get to 1000 miles a week or whatever. In a similar way it's inevitable that you see your tf2 stats and change the way you play, the classes you use and so on to get higher stats...which would be welcome if that really meant playing the game, but imo, more often than not it doesn't. There are strategies to improve stats that, for example, make going for the intel a bad option.

But don't take this as a whinge, I don't pay anything so you owe me nothing, but it is ironic that when I've ranted about the way stats appear to make people stop playing the game and just play for stats position instead, I've used your servers [and jolts] both sans stats, that I've played on for hundreds of hours, as the examples of servers that were better because they didn't have them.

That said, so far the people that go for the intel still are and I've not seen much of the really gaming behaviour yet. I've no doubt people have asked for stats but you weren't going to get many requests from people who didn't want something that you didn't have - if that makes sense :)

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

Oh good lord you are a star Parva! That was really my only quip with the HLStatX tbh.

Ahh well it's like i said, take it back to the 1.6 stats where you could find out what rank and or what stats you had by entering in a command instead of being flooded.

The point are a tad confusing. I tried to find out if it varied between what weapon you killed not only as who you killed (higher ranking e.t.c) It seemed that as a scout i could gain anything up to 5 points randomly on the SAME player.

Also i played last night and HS Mecha when he was an engineer and got 13 points!!! for killing him.....

Everyone on the server was like...err hang on???

Either way little bits and bobs will be ironed out eventually and i am knid of guessing we will get the jist of how the points gaining actually works :P


P.S if you go to steam games > right click on TF2 > then go to properties > then go to launch options and type hlx_display 0 and save it. Whenever you launch it set's it to an "off" function everytime you enter a server.

Hope this helps.

[Parva]

A bit more good news for you Badger, I'm strongly considering disallowing unicode characters in names. :) BM can be set to disallow (or rename I think) anyone that tries to join with names made from unicode characters. Recently some people have got on the servers with words that we would normally warn and ultimately ban for and which BM would also disallow if it were written in plain ascii.

Regarding the points awarded for various things, it's early days and is pretty much running on defaults at the moment, obviously there will be some tweaking to be done.

[Ypsy]

A bit more good news for you Badger, I'm strongly considering disallowing unicode characters in names. :) BM can be set to disallow (or rename I think) anyone that tries to join with names made from unicode characters. Recently some people have got on the servers with words that we would normally warn and ultimately ban for and which BM would also disallow if it were written in plain ascii.

Regarding the points awarded for various things, it's early days and is pretty much running on defaults at the moment, obviously there will be some tweaking to be done.
Very nice work Parv, especially turning of the infos "A killed B and got C points" :-) I really appreciate that!
I also think the points system is a bit strange but as you said, it's early days :)

[leahcim]

The point are a tad confusing. I tried to find out if it varied between what weapon you killed not only as who you killed (higher ranking e.t.c) It seemed that as a scout i could gain anything up to 5 points randomly on the SAME player.


The "rules" section on the global rankings [at the hlstatsx site] seems to suggest "skill changes between 2 and 15 point" but doesn't elaborate afaict.

It's open source though, so it should be easy to see [at least in principle] how they decide what "skill" is ;) It certainly isn't right, of course, but that'd be a difficult algorithm to code.

I'll probably look later if no one beats me to it.

edit: Ok, it does a "skill change" based on calculating

victimskill / killerskill * 5 * weapon modifier [which is, for example, the 1.25 for melee discussed in post 1 of this thread]

This skill change is then bounded between 2 and 15.

Then depending on "skill mode", which can be 0 to 5 [Not sure where this is set yet or what it is for this server etc] the skill change, or a percentage of it can be subtracted from the victim, as well as added to the killer. Mode 0 - victim loses same amount, Mode 1, it's 0.75 of the skill change, mode 2 is 0.5 and so on, to mode 5 where the victim's skill doesn't drop.

The skill change is also bounded to 2 if you haven't got enough kills.

Then it's rounded up to the nearest integer.

I say "2" and "15" and "enough kills" but these are all variables not hardcoded values. Although if it is 15, then you can basically get 15 points for killing someone with 3x your score. Or basically, in 2 fort terms, everyone kill Galvatron until we're getting 5 points or less and then kill other people :D Although I note I'm 7th on that map, 74th overall, so perhaps a better strategy would be go and play Dustbowl :)

It does seem to suggest that, aside from a modifer, choice of weapon makes no difference. Neither does, how much life you had, how much life they had, whether it was "difficult" to kill them and so on, and anything else you might have tried probably had nothing to do with it at all afaict [although I've done nothing more than a quick grep at the code, I haven't really looked in depth, there could be deep magic in other files] it's simply a case that you get more points for killing so-called "more skillful" players relative to your own skill within certain bounds.

Hope that helps.


P.S if you go to steam games > right click on TF2 > then go to properties > then go to launch options and type hlx_display 0 and save it. Whenever you launch it set's it to an "off" function everytime you enter a server.

Hope this helps.

Yes, that's good to know, thanks.

[Motoko]

Yup I managed to get to 22nd place or something last night, I would get roughly 2 points per kill while people killing me who are lower got 6 or 7. But if I kill another high ranked player, then I got 7 from him. So I think it is relative to where you are on board, compared to who you just killed. But I have that stats page on another monitor in Firefox and just F5 to refresh there if I want to :)

The points for engy self destruct buildings thing is a bit naff though :\ I can understand if you was Heavy or something and took out an enemy structure, but surely not your own!

~Moto

Managed it to get to 5th place yesterday evening and i only got abt 2 till 3 points per kill. Other players got 9 for killing me! Dont really understand the system as sometimes a new player with abt 1000points got only 2p for killing me :s
Dont know if that only happens to me: If you do 'statsme' you get that browser showing you statpage. If you close it, kill some players and get some points and then do statsme again the same site in brower gonna show up with same (old) stats as before. Problem: You cant refresh that site. Theres no link or button and F5 or other shortcuts wont work for me :p

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

That's it i quit!!!!!

*sigh*

So now as well as having my screen flooded with rubbish, kids comming on and laughing in my face because i am rank 1,600 and they are 4 my main classes ammo being cut down, as well as some others, and general problems with my favourite map Dustbowl i have to change my NAME.

*sigh* *sigh* *sigh*

TF2 just isn't TF2 anymore......

(i am joking about quitting but i am not a happy bunny)

[Chunkylover!]

next they'll be banning the wait command :)

anyway, all good work parva - will especially look forward to getting rid of the notification of point spams :D

[Parva]

I'm going to see how it runs as is for now as it doesn't appear to be causing any lag at the moment. As Badger suggested, add the line he suggested to your TF2 start up properties if you would prefer not to see any of this.

[Parva]

I have also dropped the penalty for dropping the flag to -5 (was -10) so you won't receive a points gain or loss (as you get +5 for picking it up).

[mks^]

Hi there,

I'd just like to voice my 2 cents on HLStatsX.

First off, I'd like to say I appreciate all the work that goes into maintaining a fantastic bunch of servers. I play almost exclusively on Multiplay servers, in particular Dustbowl 24/7 1. I also understand that there has been a lot of effort put in to implementing HLStatsX.

However, I can't help but feel as if imposing a stats system on a game such as TF2 is having a negative effect on the game and the way in which it is played.

Allow me to explain.

1. Deaths counting towards overall "rank".
Valve designed the in-game scoreboard carefully. They opted not show deaths, simply points that (fairly) accurately represent how much you have contributed towards the team's success in that round. The ommission of deaths, or even suicide penalties creates a much more exciting playstyle. People aren't worried about dying. They don't feel as if they're being measured in this area.

Implementing stats which punish people for dying only serves to encourage - not all, but some players - to focus on a playstyle which TF2 is not geared towards. And that playstyle, is a cautious one - hanging back, trying not to die, not taking risks. Now I'm not saying everyone will play like this. But undeniably there will be some that do.

2. The stats are meaningless in a game as varied as TF2
Perhaps in CS, where each player is essentially identical with identical goals and objective, stats make more sense. But in TF2, they are in no way representative of how good a player is. Different classes are more suited to the way HLStatX rewards you. Someone who camps back as a sniper will gain points without losing many via deaths. A medic in the front lines doing lots of healing? Unrewarded.

The game isn't about kills/deaths. The stats don't show how good you are at pushing people back, making mad rushes to the control points or as a Medic keeping people alive.

3. Discouraging FUN!
My most memorable times on Multiplay servers are when everyone has co-operated in switching to a certain class, or performing crazy Scout rushes, or meleeing only. Dustbowl 24/7 in particular has quite a large amount of regulars who participate in this kinda stuff and many newcomers cooperate and join in and as many people will agree - it has created some truly memorable and hilarious gaming. 10 heavies hiding behind a wall, running out together only to find the entire opposing team had gone medic? Priceless.

It's moments like these I feel a stats system may discourage. Again, not all people will be concerned by them, but the fact is a proportion will. And this can only serve to encourage people not to participate in such fun events, events which have made TF2 and Multiplay some of my most treasured gaming memories of recent times...



I know I'm not alone in these beliefs and to summarise I can't help but feel implementing stats is at best, unnecessary, and at worst detrimental to the game. I do realise that you've worked hard to implement them but I urge you, please, please consider removing them. If you ask around you should find a large proportion of the community will support their removal. The vast majority of the regulars on Dustbowl 24/7 are in agreement with myself.

I really hope you take on board what I've had to say, and I really appreciate you reading this.


P.S. Regarding the engineer trick thats put me at rank 1, this was just to sort of highlight the pointlessness at stats, and isn't some attempt to boost my ego. On the contrary, I want them removed. :)

[r3p1v]

Words.

I'm a hardcore Dustbowl 24/7 regular and I approve this message.

There's not much to add really, mks nailed it.

[Mafy]

Hi people.

Another 24/7 Dustbowl (02) regular here.

Not a great deal I can say, I would like to see the stats removed for the reason that they have the potential to discourage phun. Also many other people who frequent the server seem displeased by the decision to add them.

Otherwise, thanks for providing such a damn decent server.

[Parva]

I'll play on there a bit more and monitor the situation. If I do indeed see that games are becoming too one-sided then I may remove stats from that server. I'll see how it goes.

[kr-dm1]

The important bit

This.

[r3p1v]

I'll play on there a bit more and monitor the situation. If I do indeed see that games are becoming too one-sided then I may remove stats from that server. I'll see how it goes.

I doubt it will be an explicitly obvious change, but peoples aversion to losing points will passively drain the fun out of the game and make it even harder to win on the attacking team without communication. It's already hard enough to convince people to rush the second point.

Perhaps it would be an acceptable compromise to only remove stats from servers that only run asymmetrical maps?

[mLg|vampy]

hello guys,

im very addicted to the multiplay server and tf2 and since hlstatsx is on the servers im play a way to defense. because i dont want to be a "Nub" in the eyes of the other players. what i want to say is: it ruins the fun for me in first place.
pls remove this fu**ing plugin. thanks im out.




vampy

[mks^]

Thanks for your reply Parva.

I have to say however I agree with the above. Whilst I appreciate you willing to look into this I feel it's not something easily observable, at least without significant time invested. I think its more of a case of gauging how the community has reacted towards the change.

I don't think one-sidedness is much of an issue, it's a general shift in the attitude towards gameplay that is the problem, mainly down to the three main reasons I mentioned.

I don't want this to sound like I'm kicking up a fuss for no reason, as I genuinely want the Multiplay servers to be as excellent as possible, and I'm making these comments with that primarily in mind.

[leahcim]

I feel it's not something easily observable

Well, I think it's fairly obvious. Both in the sense you can look before, at what the stats will measure and know what will happen if you use them, and you can watch the game afterwards and see it happening. There's no great mystery here imo :)

I've made my feelings clear already though, but I just wanted to add a couple more points.

I feel that, although I'm no slouch at the game, if I'd wanted to play competitively, then I would join a clan, and I haven't joined a clan because, no matter how good I am, my computer simply isn't up to scratch and it wouldn't be competitive. Even then, I wouldn't want every second I played the game of the hours I play to be a competition. I want to practise / have fun / mess about from time to time as well - perhaps try a class I've not used before. My son likes to play too, but he's not very good, do I tell him to use a different server so my stats aren't affected?

Now I feel on mp servers I'm more or less forced to compete because the stats are there and that is now the game. No fault of MP of course, but I can't afford to upgrade and join in this new stats league. So I'm already thinking I can't win, so what's the point? [I'm also thinking that I'm high enough up the list that there can't be that much skill around worth shouting about anyway ;)]

So for a fun game I have to go and play somewhere else, until I get a better computer and join the server when I want to compete, but since some will play every second on the server it still won't be competitive...sheesh, why not just arrange a few hour long matches when the Galvatrons and Pengs are around, and keep stats for those? You could play that intense - we're gonna do what it takes to win - for a time period that nigh on everyone from casual players to gave-up-their-day-job tf2aholics could all manage, but without every minute you play on the server - and to compete you'll have to play for an awful lot of minutes - thinking "how can I score as many points as possible to keep high in the stats?"

Now, 300+ hours of gameplay ago I would have probably said something different like "Had I wanted to compete I would play the game for hundreds of hours and then join a clan. I don't want to compete because I've hardly played the game and I'm not good enough...." and so on.

Had I played scout for 100+ hours I would probably say "If I wanted to compete with stats I would have played soldier..." and so on.

This is actually still true for classes I've not played, I can't see much motivation to learn on your servers now they are competitive. What's the point in being a casual player to a server with stats?

I believe the stats get cleared every so often or only track the last few days or something? But it's still partly relevant imo.

[Parva]

Why does this seem to be an issue only on #02? Hmmmm. Anyway, I am going to remove the reporting of 'A killed B and got X points' from all servers. The reason for this is that I've noticed some lag issues due to the rate at which HLStatsX is sending data to a server, particularly on a point cap which sends a psay to all players and floods the server, hence lag.

I am however leaving stats running and the commands statsme, place and rank will all still be active. On the plus side, the stats will be totally unintrusive other than people requesting 'place'. This will fix the lag issues that have been caused by the new addition and it also means that those that do like stats can check how well they're doing, those that don't can totally ignore it and not be spammed to death about it.

I hope that this will be a satisfactory solution for both camps on this matter. If people want stats they're there and they can access them, if people don't then they won't be spammed with HLStatsX messages and have no need to type any of the commands to check their own particular stats.

[r3p1v]

The problem is that HLStatsX is designed to be a fairly balanced economy. The killer gets posts, the killed loses points, and it all balances out. If some players are playing non-seriously (for example melee only) they effectively become free points, and 'pro-stats' players will actively hunt them down and never try to melee them back (too risky).

Not to mention the scoring system is inherently flawed, as HLSX awards a point for each point you get within valves scoring system, but the two are completely incompatible. Valves system is a short-term, one-way increase of points, whereas HLSX has traditionally been a self-ajusting measure of skill which can increase and decrease.

By attaching HLSX to the Valve scores, certain classes (non-combat medic, engineer, sniper) will increase their score constantly with no downwards adjustment, regardless of how useful they are to the team. Due to this, the scores will be much like the Battlefield 2/2142 global stats - a function of how much you've played, not how good you are. Point farming is also trivial, as mks has demonstrated. I imagine a spy and engineer on opposing teams could spam/remove sappers to generate huge amounts of Placed Object and Removed Object points.

Cheers,
- rep, one vee?

[Spikx]

Hello there, some words from me too. I generally agree with mks^' points 1 and 2 but I don't know about 3 (yet). Personally, I don't care about my rank or anything, I haven't changed my "style of gameplay" because of the points I might win or lose. I realize that not everyone will think that way. If the stats are affecting the fun, I agree that they should be removed.

However, what I like about stats is the personal stuff (just like the original stats from VALVe). e.g. how many times I killed someone with my bonesaw ;). So if it was up to me, I would remove the point system and thus the ranks completely and maybe add ranks about kills with particular weapon per week or something like that (at the most, if at all, since this could also encourage people to be too competitive). But I don't know if this is possible.

[leahcim]

Firstly, I've never played on 02.


I hope that this will be a satisfactory solution for both camps on this matter. If people want stats they're there and they can access them, if people don't then they won't be spammed with HLStatsX messages and have no need to type any of the commands to check their own particular stats.

Well, at the risk of sounding obtuse If I didn't like tf2 at all I could never hit tab and ignore that score and I could walk around the map instead telling people that I prefer to be friendly as killing is wrong, and hope they would reciprocate and not shoot me. But I do realise some people like the guns, so fair enough let's compromise I'll ignore getting killed. Perhaps I could sing a song about the beautiful sky. Maybe feed the cow on 2fort, and then get a few of the Aussies on the battlements to help me BBQ it? :)

But, this would obviously be a fruitless and pointless waste of time because folk are going to the servers to do something specific - if I don't want to do that thing, then ignoring it would be ridiculous. I can't pretend that parts of the game don't exist by not looking at some messages or ignoring the scores.

Burying our heads in the sand won't change the fact that people are now playing for stat rankings. There's little point or sense having the stats if you didn't expect, believe and want that to be the case.

Playing on the server for any other reason doesn't make much sense now. As I've said in previous posts, the stats system requires a substantial investment of time to be worthwhile. Your stats are always measured and your ranking changes 24/7. Not playing will lose you rank, as will not playing effectively all the time you are playing the game. One or two bad rounds is par for the course ime, but stats don't care, they measure all the time.

It's 24/7 x 7 stats. That's how long a round is now.

Of course, you might argue that this is good thing and want the stats and believe that the gameplay with stats is still TF2. You might even think it is better. Fair enough, each to their own, some of us obviously don't agree, but given the number of servers with the stats, some evidently do.

But, here's the rub, imo, there can be no compromise. Hoping folk who don't like stats will pretend the stats aren't there can't work. How could it? Ok, a casual gamer might not care too much, but certainly not for folk who play regularly, and have played the game for hundreds of hours. I'm sure they care about their round scores, and about winning rounds and about playing well when they are on the server. And so they will care now that every hour they play is competitively measured, and every hour you don't play potentially mean you have lost the game. I'm sure they won't ignore the stats. But I'm sure some of them will feel that winning now becomes a much bigger investment and one that, to them, isn't what the game is about.

Valve from time to time may change the game, and you may from time to time change the config of servers. This is to be expected, but what the game is, and how the servers are configured is a fact. A fact you can't really ignore or pretend hasn't changed.

That said I think many who play for a significant number of hours will want stats. As I said to someone on the 2fort server, I think it was an admin, who suggested the stats might not always be around. I said, you can't tell the 3 snipers who have just sat on a quiet server with no opposing snipers and got hundreds of easy kills, that it wasn't skill. You've got a stats system that's telling them it is, and they were playing to get points in that system. Why will he say "yeah, it wasn't skill, delete them" Of course he'll want those stats. If you recognise that sometimes "the stats don't really show skill" [and I think most people believe this] then the stats are flawed anyway and don't actually work.

Folk often moan that in a similar way, the the ingame MVP display doesn't reflect skill or team effort either. But, in it's favour I note to get on that list of 3 your team does have to win. If everyone, say, played soldier then that usually wouldn't happen [and even then, only 3 of those soldiers could have the highest score] and if someone isn't even on the server then their score doesn't appear. Not even a whisper of "3 days ago, John score 260!"

[That's without mentioning the global rankings, where I can beat people I've never played on the same server as. Or perhaps I can hire a factory in China to play the game for me? When one falls asleep another takes over...What's the ping like from there?]

Now your team doesn't need to win. And you can beat someone who plays for, let's say an average of 3 hours a day by simply picking different hours.

As I've said, if the stats are on a server I'm playing on, then I'm not going to ignore them. I'm going to do what is necessary [and permitted of course] to get as high as I can - to do anything else would be peeing into the wind.

My argument is that this attitude, which many will adopt because it'd be daft not to, isn't playing TF2. At least in my opinion of what TF2 is. I much preferred the round based game that I played round by round, when I wanted to, as time permitted, by connecting to a server against whoever else had done the same.

Bottom line, if I don't want stats, I shall have to play where there aren't stats. There's no other solution. Ignoring them won't work.

[Ypsy]

edit: Ok, it does a "skill change" based on calculating
Nice work here! Very interesting, but I have to say that I dont like this system and am not very comfortable anymore with this type of stats either. I still like stats in general. Its always nice to see how good or bad someone is or you are.
Wisdom
I have to agree with that, but I dont want them to removed completely. I'd love some stats working like the valve system. Just showing the points you've made, which classes you played etc. No minus points or skill changes, just exactly like the official ones but for Multiplay servers only. But Parva has done some hard work though and it would be a shame if they'd be without success.

[Parva]

As you may have noticed, I have now removed the HLStatsX spam from all servers but stats are still enabled for those people that would like to track them. I appreciate the comments made about possible problems and I shall be watching for this kind of activity and if it's then felt necessary to remove stats from certain servers then I will do so.

[Darth-Damo]

Im curious as to how you will notice these changes. I am another regular of #02 and you really dont play on the server enough to be able to notice the change. Its not like there will be hugely obvious changes, they will be subtle, and unless you play on the server alot, you wont notice. How it will become less fun, and more serious.

[Parva]

I don't take kindly to comments like you gave me earlier Damo, I work damned hard to make these servers good for the majority of people. Having spoken to Mafy at length I've decided that I shall be overseeing #02 personally from now on.

[mks^]

That's cool.

I didn't think I have been overly demanding in what I have said so far, so sorry if it's come across that way. That is not my intention at all. I have only urged you to consider stats removal, based on the points I made in my argument. The last thing I want is to sound like some selfish idiot making demands to the head of Multiplay just because I'm not happy with something. The whole name tag thing was nothing more than a light-hearted protest, its by no means some kind of "get everyone to gang up on Parva and make him do what we want scheme". Not at all.

I will admit I am becoming slightly less concerned about there implementation though. That's not to say I agree with them, but I think I may have overestimated the negative implications they might have. I think by turning off the constant HLStatsX messages has made a difference because this stops people thinking "oh no, I've just lost x points for dying, better switch to sniper and pick off a few people without dying". So I'm glad for that decision. Thankfully I think the community is largely focused on having fun at the end of the day, more so than I overestimated, and it would appear the proportion of people taking note of them and adjusting their playstyle to improve their rank is less than I expected.

What I still don't like the fact the stats are essentially a ranking system. Parva I'd like you to consider the following:

Keep the statistics themselves. But remove the ranking system.

I have realised I have nothing against the statistics about how many kills I've had, or what weapons I use the most, but simply the fact that there is this arbitrary ranking system calculated by them.

This way, people can still check their kills, deaths, bonesaw kills etc, but its kept private. It's not used to compare them against other players. Just like Valve intended the scoring to be. Since there is no ranking, people will be far, far less inclined to play for increasing their KD ratio or whatever. Implementing this system would hopefully mean you don't feel as if your hard work has been wasted either - again something which I have never intended you to feel.

[Darth-Damo]

mks^, you sir, are a genius.


He has hit the nail right on the head with that one. Stats are fine, it is the ranking system that is bad. Please strongly consider removing it.

Again I apologise for my remarks, you just really seemed to be ignoring everything we were saying though.

[Parva]

Whilst I see where you are coming from with this new idea I don't believe it is workable. I cannot think of any way that I could remove the rank display of players from that server alone other than to remove it altogether (which I know is ultimately what you hope to gain). Nice idea but I honestly cannot see a way to do what you propose. :(

[mks^]

I'd be indifferent between a of additional stats system without a rank implemented and no system whatsoever. In fact, come to think of it I'd probably support the former.

Is there not any way to remove "place" commands etc from the current system, and then remove the ranking display when people request their statistics, so it just displays their total kills, total deaths etc, things which HLStatsX already monitors and reports upon?

Essentially it would be an extension of Valve's scoring system providing a little more detail about things, and allowing people to have keep a sort of "stats history" of their time on Multiplay servers, but without encouraging them to play for the stats.

[Parva]

Unfortunately, there's no way of doing that. :( I have however now also removed advertising of the stats on that server also so the only reason people will get to know of its existence there is if they see others making use of them.

[Tsol]

I think it's good idea to have the stats as a background service with no popups or messages informing the player of their progress. Rather it should be kept out of sight as to not distract for from the game too much.

Also it'd be useful to have the stats only displayed to the player. That way it doesn't become too much of a competition and "fun tiems" can still be had. Unless theres already a command so I can both check on my score and not seem like a twunt trying show off my (not brilliant) rank.

The stats have definitely been improved in terms of obscuring the game. So really I don't know why I'm here.

Cheerio!

Btw server 2 is my home, my mistress and my lover.

[steve1]

Given all that has been said, I'm sure everyone, like me, is stupidly grateful for the amount of effort you have put in to make this information available to all of us. I love to go and have a look at my progress (watch out, n00b alert1).

I agree that the stats should run invisibly for the user in-game and be availble for all to see if the need arises.

Once again, as a newbie, many thanks for your efforts. I would urge everyone to remember the amount of time and trouble it takes to collate all this info.

(right, sucking up to the important people now over, time to build another sentry)

[Parva]

If you type 'rank' rather than 'place' you get a neat stats box that shows you your stats the difference being it only shows your current ranking to you whereas place shows to all.

[DaZmaN=UK>]

Hi guys, just a comment on the stats, I cant help but feel Pyros lose out?

One reason maybe guard duty on the teles/dispensers and such.

[Parva]

I'll look into that and possibly raise the points per kill very slightly, will see how it goes first.

[Rehat]

I'm Ranked 4k =)

[r3p1v]

I'm Ranked 4k =)

Play ultra-paranoid medic, demoman and engineer and you can be top 10 material in no time! ;-)

[Rehat]

Too Much Coursework For That =P

[Rehat]

Play ultra-paranoid medic, demoman and engineer and you can be top 10 material in no time! ;-)


Too Much Coursework For That =P

[t!mo]

I would reduce the stats for snipers!

[Parva]

I would reduce the stats for snipers!

Not really worth it, few of the top spots are occupied by snipers (who get the same points per kill as any other class anyway). The only one I may need to tweak a little more is medic, seems our number 1 top spot guy is holding onto that lead with the points gained as medic both assisted kills and ubers.

[Chunkylover!]

Not really worth it, few of the top spots are occupied by snipers (who get the same points per kill as any other class anyway). The only one I may need to tweak a little more is medic, seems our number 1 top spot guy is holding onto that lead with the points gained as medic both assisted kills and ubers.

it's about time we got some recognition as to how much we really contribute tbh :)

[Spikx]

What's up with the hamster strike? :)