Penalty Notice for no TAX - HELP [Archive]

gemini

10th January 2008, 15:15

I could really use some help please. I got a letter about topic this morning and it is quite worrying as I simply can not afford to pay the fine.

Let me explain everything.

I originally owned a Renault Clio as my first car. On 31st October 2007 I part exchanged it at a big main Ford Dealership to get a Ford Mondeo.

On the 31st October I drove my Clio to the dealership, and exchanged cars. I filled out the V95 personally and traded cars. Then I took the tax disc OUT of my Clio and took it to the DVLA office where I claimed a refund for the remaining months on the tax disc. I filled out the SORN notice at this time.

This morning I recieve a letter saying I was the registered keeper of the Clio on the 31/10/07 and that no Tax or SORN has been present on it and that I am now going to have to pay a fine of £80.

I have done some checking and it appears I should have recieved a SORN confirmation no more than 4 weeks after declaring it SORN. As far as I am aware, I did NOT recieve such a notification and if I did I certainly dont have it now.

Can anyone tell me please how to clear up this mess. This was either a genuine mistake on my part or on the DVLA's part as I am sure I did everything correctly. I certainly didnt have any criminal intent in this matter and am fairly certain I did everything as instructed.

Thank you in advance. And MUCH beer to anyone who is able to tell me how to clear up this mess without me paying a fine and in a short a time as possable.

tigger

10th January 2008, 15:20

Jamz

10th January 2008, 15:20

Why were you declaring a car SORN that you did not own? You should have claimed your car Tax back from the 1st of November not the 31st of October

gemini

10th January 2008, 15:30

Do you still have the paperwork from the post office etc? The DVLA are one of the largest waste of spaces ever so it's possible it's their fault. If you don't have any proof you declared it as SORN then the best bet would be the Ford dealership to see if they can help you.

If it comes down to fighting it out with the DVLA I'd just pay the fine and give up, its not worth the hassle :)

As far as I am aware I do not have anything from the DVLA office. I filled out the forms (cant remember what they were called) while in the office. If I was given any paperwork then I dont have it now as far as I am aware.

Why were you declaring a car SORN that you did not own? You should have claimed your car Tax back from the 1st of November not the 31st of October

You can only claim car tax back for a full month. Hence I was told by both the Ford Dealer and the person in the DVLA offive I could claim back the tax on it on 31st and I would be ok. If I claimed it on the 1st November then I would not have recieved the refund for November itself.

Ryvita

10th January 2008, 15:31

JeRkY

10th January 2008, 15:36

The car shouldnt have been declared SORN, or if it did it shouldnt have been you who had to do it.

As has been suggested try to get a copy of the transaction including the P/X arangement from the ford agent. Main agents are usually very good like with things like that.

Any way you go about it your going to run in to a conflict with the DVLA, best just to get all the evidence you can before you start.

Jamz

10th January 2008, 15:39

You can only claim car tax back for a full month. Hence I was told by both the Ford Dealer and the person in the DVLA offive I could claim back the tax on it on 31st and I would be ok. If I claimed it on the 1st November then I would not have recieved the refund for November itself.[/QUOTE]

So you only claimed back November and onwards then?

gemini

10th January 2008, 15:41

I think he means that he filled out the form, which has a section for "I've sold the car".

Proof that you handed the disc into the post office would certainly help. Do you still have a section of the V95? that should also prove it's no longer yours.

I never went to the post office I went to the local DVLA office seeing as it is easier to get parked there. As far as I am aware I did not leave with any paperwork.

I have all my paperwork for both my cars in front of me. I am sorting through them all at the minute to try to find something which confirms I had no longer owned the car or that I have done everything I should have.

I am going to go for a ten minute walk. Im really stressing out at the minute and should probably calm down before continuing sorting this out.

gemini

10th January 2008, 15:41

You can only claim car tax back for a full month. Hence I was told by both the Ford Dealer and the person in the DVLA offive I could claim back the tax on it on 31st and I would be ok. If I claimed it on the 1st November then I would not have recieved the refund for November itself.

So you only claimed back November and onwards then?[/QUOTE]

Yes

Portia

10th January 2008, 15:58

Seems like this is a common problem according to google :(

What is the actual offence the DVLA are claiming?

kandy

10th January 2008, 16:11

Have you tried ringing them and explaining that you sold the car ages ago...

gemini

10th January 2008, 16:21

Have you tried ringing them and explaining that you sold the car ages ago...

There is no phone number I can call for this situation. The main line just fob me off. And the letter I recieved today has no other phone number on it other than the "phone us with ur credit card" number.

Portia

10th January 2008, 16:30

We need to know what the actual problem the DVLA has...

You seem to be saying that it is that on th 31st October, you didn't have tax for the car. Is this the case, or is it that after 31st October, you didn't have tax for the car? They are quite different problems.

kandy

10th January 2008, 16:39

There is no phone number I can call for this situation. The main line just fob me off. And the letter I recieved today has no other phone number on it other than the "phone us with ur credit card" number.

Write to them explaining the situation then....

ProfLiebstrom

10th January 2008, 16:54

go to local dvla office and speak to them about it all. They can advise you better than any of us about what they want to prove the car wasnt yours etc.

gemini

10th January 2008, 16:57

Ye I think im going to do that tomorrow.

When I first opened the envelope and created this thread I was really stressing out. £80 isnt something I have just spare. I dont make enough money for that. Now ive had a while to sort of digest it and chill out I am much calmer and probably got a level head on the topic now.

I will head into the DVLA office first thing tomorrow morning and will let you know how it all works out.

jugster

10th January 2008, 16:59

Pay the fine first, then appeal. In my job I see this sort of thing and we always recommend Paying the fine first, (So it does go any further.) then appeal for a refund.

Good Luck.

Stephen.

kandy

10th January 2008, 18:55

Pay the fine first, then appeal. In my job I see this sort of thing and we always recommend Paying the fine first, (So it does go any further.) then appeal for a refund.

Lol, yeah right.

What are they "going to take further" exactly?

If you are clearly in the right and have solid proof of this, then you have nothing to worry about, as long as you don't just ignore it and write to them explaining the situation. Follow it up with a recorded delivery if they don't reply.

I'm quite shocked companies actually think its moral to trick people into paying something they dispute like that.

Afty

10th January 2008, 19:11

Pay the fine first, then appeal. In my job I see this sort of thing and we always recommend Paying the fine firstDon't know what you do, could be a solicitor for all I know, so I could be barking up the wrong tree...

But if you pay a fine, you will pretty much NEVER see a return from a private company or a government institution, should you actually be in the right.

If you're *sure* you're in the right, don't give them a damn penny. If you're not so sure, then £80 might be a small price to pay to avoid gambling with the rip-off bureaucracy we have in this country today.

gemini

10th January 2008, 19:16

If you're *sure* you're in the right, don't give them a damn penny. If you're not so sure, then £80 might be a small price to pay to avoid gambling with the rip-off bureaucracy we have in this country today.

I am sure I intentionally did nothing wrong
I am sure I did everything the car dealer, and the DVLA office told me to do

I think I may have found a solution. I am pretty sure the form that says I have sold the car / want tax refund is the same form. They did definatly send me the refund for the car tax which definatly means they got the form. Tomorrow before going to the DVLA office I am going to go to the bank and get the information about when I paid this refund into my bank account. That should hopefully be enough proof that I did send them accurate information as they wouldnt have sent me the refund otherwise.

Thrud

10th January 2008, 19:48

Be interesting to hear how you get on with this.

I would agree with Afty, don't pay a thing until you are DAMN sure you have tried everything...paying at the 11th hour is the order of the day if you have no proof.

lyn

10th January 2008, 19:49

Go to the citizen's advice, they will be able to help you
But speaking from working in the motor trade for many years i would check with the garage you part exchanged it with, you should have paperwork to state that they took the vehicle in on a certain date. I suppect they have sold it on to a trader who hasn't done any paperwork. All you really need to do is to prove that you weren't the owner after the 31st of october.

Silk75

10th January 2008, 20:13

Jez_Gafys

10th January 2008, 20:17

When you transfer ownership it is the sellers responsibility to notify DVLA (as you have done) you shouldn't have declared SORN as thats what you use when you own the car but it has been taken off he road. Everytime I have sold a car I have always received a letter on the lines of thank you for notifying us of the change of ownership blah blah. Just play dumb to dvla and claim you did everything they ask.

Strych

10th January 2008, 21:02

But if you pay a fine, you will pretty much NEVER see a return from a private company or a government institution, should you actually be in the right.

Apart from small claims court. Which I would not recommend.

I would be minded to call up the DVLA, tell them they have made a serious error, and demand to be given a phone number for someone you can alert to this fact. When you call that number demand you speak to the goddamn KING of the DVLA and don't let them fob you off until you succeed.

I find that persistence and minor threats in the face of bureaucracy tend to get results.

gemini

10th January 2008, 21:08

When you changed your car did you send the section of your V5 log off to the DVLA stating transferred ownership to a motor dealer? Or did you just sign to say it not yours and leave the V5 with the Ford dealer?

That is a good question. And one I am not entirely sure of the answer.

I have been speaking to my uncle who is very good with these sorts of things. He said the cause of the problem is most likely the dealer who will not have registered it to themselves, thus meaning the car had one less previous owner. Somewhere inbetween the DVLA messing up my paperwork, or me not even getting any paperwork.

Go to the citizen's advice, they will be able to help you
But speaking from working in the motor trade for many years i would check with the garage you part exchanged it with, you should have paperwork to state that they took the vehicle in on a certain date. I suppect they have sold it on to a trader who hasn't done any paperwork. All you really need to do is to prove that you weren't the owner after the 31st of october.

Thanks for that Lyn. I will definatly speak to Citizens Advice tomorrow if I cant get it sorted out first thing with the DVLA tomorrow.

When you transfer ownership it is the sellers responsibility to notify DVLA (as you have done) you shouldn't have declared SORN as thats what you use when you own the car but it has been taken off he road. Everytime I have sold a car I have always received a letter on the lines of thank you for notifying us of the change of ownership blah blah. Just play dumb to dvla and claim you did everything they ask.

I definatly did NOT recieve any form of communication from the DVLA saying anything about change of ownership. This is the first letter I have recieved from them since the V5 for my new car. Apparently I am supposed to chase this up if I dont recieve anything, but I wasnt aware I was even supposed to get anything, far less that I should chase it up.

Thanks for all the advice given so far. Its all very helpful.

Shazz

10th January 2008, 21:12

You did post/give the change of ownership form to the DVLA didn't you?

(iirc its the responsibility of the previous owner, could be wrong)

Baroness

10th January 2008, 21:36

Just to say that I read in the (national) paper today that recently (last month or so iirc), the DVLA has cocked up / lost (I can't remember which) a massive number of tax applications. So there is a chance that this is not just a random cock-up but part of a recognised problem that the DVLA are now aware of.

Just thought I'd chuck that in on the off chance.

lyn

10th January 2008, 21:46

Shazz

10th January 2008, 21:47

They also lost discs with everyones details on just like the dhss and nhs.

They only lost 6,000 peoples details from NI, not everyones.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7138408.stm

So this won't affect gemini, unless he's moved out of scotland...

Afty

10th January 2008, 21:55

Apart from small claims court. Which I would not recommend.Yeah sorry, I perhaps should have clarified... a court judgment or a fine issued BY a magistrates court you should probably pay by the due date regardless of whether you're pursuing action against the claimant.

But "fines" from other organisations (non-criminal government departments, private companies, county councils) are essentially just invoices asking you for cash. If they ever want to collect on the payment they will have to prove the balance of the facts in a court... assuming you fight it all the way.

Receiving a "Fine" in the post does not mean you must pay the organisation money... I've avoided more fines than I've paid (including a troublesome and MONTHS long issue with Stratford Upon Avon over a ticket received at a StratLAN) by quite some margin, I'd estimated I've probably only paid about two out of every five "fine" notices I have received. But you *MUST* make sure you are in the right, from a legal (and preferably moral) standpoint, before you make trouble.

If you do decide to "make trouble" for the claimant, do what they do - hit them hard and immediately, be a pain in the arse and be TOTALLY unrelenting.

The tactics organisations use to make people pay unfair/unapplicable fines are utterly disgusting (cheaper if you pay now/this week/ penalty after 28 days/ you are liable for us passing this to an outside agency/ you are liable for postal costs/ liable for administrative costs/ liable for bailiffs visits) so you should be prepared to be nasty about it too.

I once had six weeks worth of DSL bills (moved property, company claimed not to have received cancellation notice) multiply over 18 months with me moving house again, hard to find, and in the end despite me constantly reassuring them they were in the wrong they referred the matter to a debt collection agency. They then made mistakes, tried to contact me at the wrong address etc. (you're NOT obliged to help them) and when they FINALLY tracked me down and sent me a letter I sent them a recorded delivery message back stating that if they pursued the matter that I would commence legal action against them for extortion and blackmail - they mentioned ("threatened") how it might affect my credit rating - and that the originating company were fraudulently representing the debt. The debt collection agency turned tale and ran like a rabbit, passing the buck back to the original ISP... along with HUNDREDS of pounds of costs. Eventually after further calls the ISP were forced to drop the issue, realising that they could not have the matter concluded by outsourcing to debt collection, and that were they to attempt to recover the costs in court they would need to prove that I failed to notify them, and that I used the service while no-one was living there... for the sake of £45 they chose not to do this - but they did end with costs in the hundreds from the debt collection company, and probably alot more in internal costs...

Deman

10th January 2008, 23:18

A novel idea, phone the DVLA.

VonFaceless

10th January 2008, 23:57

A novel idea, phone the DVLA.

Already been suggested I think ;)

I would be minded to call up the DVLA, tell them they have made a serious error, and demand to be given a phone number for someone you can alert to this fact. When you call that number demand you speak to the goddamn KING of the DVLA and don't let them fob you off until you succeed.

lyn

11th January 2008, 07:16

Telephone number 0870 8500007 but be warned it is a premuim rate number.

Ryvita

11th January 2008, 07:35

Telephone number 0870 8500007 but be warned you may be talking to a welshman.

DVLA Swansea. Fixed that for you. :p

lyn

11th January 2008, 07:56

Telephone number 0870 8500007 but be warned you may be talking to a welshman.

Thats made me giggle

Elkeeed

11th January 2008, 12:06

A novel idea, phone the DVLA.

I don't know if you ever tried that but all you get is an automated menu about 10 levels deep with no option to talk to a real person on any of them! :P

Dan

11th January 2008, 12:11

http://saynoto0870.com -> search for 0870 8500007

DVLA geographical numbers

gemini

11th January 2008, 12:11

I just got back from the DVLA office and I have to say I have never encountered such beurocracy in my life. And the woman behind the counter was the most selfish unhelpful person alive.

When I got in, there was no other customers in there, I went up to her window and sat down. She told me to go back to the door to get a ticket. So I got up, got a ticket, then immediatly she called my ticket number.

If that wasnt bad enough, I tried explaining the situation, and all I got from her was a "You need to fill in the form we dont deal with that here". I tried asking if there was any other way she could help me, give me a phone number or any other advice, and all I got was the same scentence exactly from her. "You need to fill in the form we dont deal with that here"

Needless to say, I am now pissed off. I have contacted the DVLA over the phone and it turns out I am still the registered keeper of the Clio. So NOW I am going to speak to the garage and find out where the part of the Clio that says it belongs to them now went.

Baroness

11th January 2008, 12:39

People like that REALLY piss me off. Seriously. Not only not helpful, but rude and actively obstructive. I feel for you :(

kandy

11th January 2008, 12:42

lyn

11th January 2008, 12:45

You should have been given paperwork when the garage took the Clio from you, it maybe be written on the bottom of the invoice for the new car. This will show that you are no longer the registered keeper of the car. This always happens with garages, they don't sign the car over to them with the DVLA as it adds another owner to the list and some people like cars with only 1 or 2 owners.
If you can't find your copy of the paperwork then the dealer should be able to supply you with a copy even if it's only a photocopy.

Unplugged

11th January 2008, 12:45

Needless to say, I am now pissed off. I have contacted the DVLA over the phone and it turns out I am still the registered keeper of the Clio. So NOW I am going to speak to the garage and find out where the part of the Clio that says it belongs to them now went.

If ever you sell a car again or give it up then mae sure you keep the "New Ownser Details" sli and send it off yourself personally. If you leave it to the garage and it goes walkies ( or in most cases they dont send it in so on the V5 still says the number of previous owners doesent go up ) and it doeswent properly get SORNed as being on their forecourt then your liable for the tax.

lyn

11th January 2008, 12:47

gemini your making such a mountain out of a molehill out of this.

you make it sound like you've been served with a repo notice on your home and baliffs have turned up or something.

Just write to them and tell you have not been the keeper of the car since mm/yy and wait for them to come back to you!

Do you like trolling other people's threads?
It may not seem important to you but it is to Gemini, if you don't have anything constructive to say then i suggest you don't say anything at all.

Shazz

11th January 2008, 12:47

You did post/give the change of ownership form to the DVLA didn't you?

(iirc its the responsibility of the previous owner, could be wrong)

Needless to say, I am now pissed off. I have contacted the DVLA over the phone and it turns out I am still the registered keeper of the Clio. So NOW I am going to speak to the garage and find out where the part of the Clio that says it belongs to them now went.

if this is the case, then i believe theres SFA you can do about it, apart from ask the dealer to be nice and cough up. But at the end of the day it's only a small fine, pay for it yourself...

tigger

11th January 2008, 12:47

Kandy not sure you've dealt with the DVLA before? It will, even if they bother to respond to the letter, take them months to reply. They have two speeds, slow and stop.

They are one of the most frustrating group of people you could wish to deal with, and to make things worse they don't give a monkey's (as Gemini has already experienced). Talking to them on the phone is no better either, perhaps even worse.

Although what Shazz say's is right, if in their records your the registered owner and you've got no hard proof of the details being sent off (even if you did send them off) then it might be worth just paying the fine and learning from this experience

I do however wish Gemini the very best of british :)

Afty

11th January 2008, 12:49

"You need to fill in the form we dont deal with that here"Don't put up with that crap. If you had questions you needed answers to, you should have stayed at the window and kept repeating your questions until either a manager came down, or security escorted you from the building. Use their own tactics against them.

gemini

11th January 2008, 13:11

Thanks for all the support people. You have kept my head on straight when else it would have span round in circles till my face turned bright red and comedy steam started shooting from my ears.

Im quite happy at this point as through the advice given here and my own detective skills I have concluded that I am definatly not responsible for paying this fine and as such will not be paying them a damn penny.

Firstly, after contacting the garage where I traded my car in I have concluded that they do not keep the yellow part of the V5 document. They give it to the customer to post away themselves. I definatly did this as I specifically remember going to Asda on the way home to buy some envelopes. I remember this clearly as a friend of mine who works there commented on my new car which I was driving when I was there.

Secondly, even if I am still the registered keeper, I am not responsible for the fine as I did declare the car SORN. In order to claim a refund you need to fill out a V14 (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=51688&Rendition=Web). As you may notice, part of this form includes an SORN. I also definatly filled out this section of the form as it directs me on the form to do so.

And I know for a fact the DVLA recieved the V14 as I was issued with the tax refund.

Deman

11th January 2008, 14:43

I don't know if you ever tried that but all you get is an automated menu about 10 levels deep with no option to talk to a real person on any of them! :P

We deal with over a thousand vehicles through this office, you simply have to sit press buttons and then speak to a person.

Takes less time than the original post probably took to write :roll:

Afty

11th January 2008, 15:05

you simply have to sit press buttons and then speak to a person.Maybe you can get through to a real person, maybe you can't - but people shouldn't have to put up with that crap.

Companies with automated systems like this are essentially saying "We value our time much more highly than yours, ha-ha!" - I always take my business elsewhere to companies which have humans picking up the phones when I have the option, even if it's a little more expensive - and it generally is, as good customer services costs money.

kandy

11th January 2008, 15:10

Do you like trolling other people's threads?
It may not seem important to you but it is to Gemini, if you don't have anything constructive to say then i suggest you don't say anything at all.

I'm not sure how you find my suggestions as "trolling", I've given Gemini perfectly good suggestions on how to solve this.

Kandy not sure you've dealt with the DVLA before? It will, even if they bother to respond to the letter, take them months to reply. They have two speeds, slow and stop.

Which isn't your problem is it, if they want to take 2 months to reply to you then fine, thats their problem. Not yours!

Why should Gemini spend his time running around like a madman trying to sort this out when they are so incompetent and don't want to help him? Extend them the same privilege, like I said its not like his house is about to be repossessed.

Tsung

11th January 2008, 15:18

No but they might try and crush his car :p

kandy

11th January 2008, 15:20

No but they might try and crush his car :p

seeming he doesn't own it anymore, while extremely harsh on the new owners it would be ****ing hilarious :D

Afty

11th January 2008, 16:28

like I said its not like his house is about to be repossessed.Actually, if he is in the wrong (made a paperwork error about the date, failed to file required form etc.) it's entirely possible that were he to ignore this he WOULD be subject to county court judgments etc. later down the line.

It is an issue, he needs to deal with it - he needs the best advice possible to get it dealt with as quickly and painlessly as possible...

kandy

11th January 2008, 16:35

Actually, if he is in the wrong (made a paperwork error about the date, failed to file required form etc.) it's entirely possible that were he to ignore this he WOULD be subject to county court judgments etc. later down the line.

It is an issue, he needs to deal with it - he needs the best advice possible to get it dealt with as quickly and painlessly as possible...

Sure, if he just ignored it. Getting it down in writing to them promptly explaining the situation however is a good idea incase it did ever come to that, I wouldn't call it bad advice. Also thats all my response has been, advice to someone asking for help! Theres plenty of suggestions here from people and its up to him how he decides to deal with it :)

A phone call can usually resolve these sort of matters in most cases, I'm basing what I said on the fact no-one seems to be interested in talking to him at the DVLA.

gemini

11th January 2008, 16:52

I was basically looking for advice on what to write. Seeing as I was absolutly wigging out and not being able to focus on anything.

Plus, I simply can not afford to pay an £80 fine. I dont keep money spare just incase I get a fine for something. I live from payday to payday on what actually comes in.

Deman I assume you work for the DVLA. In which case you may know what I'm talking about. when I phone the main line in swansea I get fobbed off being told the only thing I can do is put everything in writing with the office that issued the fine. But I dont want to put everything in writing I would rather quickly and painlessly sort it out over the phone. When I went into my local office they said the same thing. They were unhelpful and uncaring. I fully understand it may not be something their office handles but a little sympathy or compassion from her part explaining exactly how I go about dealing with the problem may help. Its not like im the king know it all of the DVLA.

Essentially, I got a letter through the post, from a company demanding £80 from me. Then, it is made extremely difficult for me to even discuss the matter far less explain things and get the problem dealt with. Does that remind you of any sort of organisation? One that wants your money but doesnt really care about the situation.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/tony_soprano.jpg

Plus, if i'm going to just poke the numbers neccessary to get me through to a real person, what the **** differance does it make that I bother pressing any. Why not just put me through to a person to begin with. And considering aswell im paying for the priveladge of "decrypting the phone system" to find an option that puts me through to a person. It really is just like turning up after the battle and bayonetting all the survivors.

Right at the end of this post I have copied the letter I sent to the DVLA (with certain details removed ofc).

Hopefully though that is the end of the matter. It was an extremely stressful few hours dealing with this crap. And assuming that it does end here I will leave it as it is. But if the DVLA insist I pay up then I will do everything I possably can to not pay and to claim as much money back from them as I possably can.

Greg Hanson
xxx St Michaels Road
Newtonhill
Stonehaven
AB39 3XW

xxxxx xxxxxx

DVLA REFERANCE : XXX XXXX XXX

Section D – Continued

On 31st October 2007 I part exchanged Renault Clio (XXXX JGY) for a new car. I gave the car dealer the V5 documents for the Clio upon which he filled out section 9 of this form. This form was given to me which I then posted to the DVLA immediately.

I defiantly posted the yellow document to the DVLA at the address specified on the back. I have therefore concluded that Section 9 of the V5 for the Renault Clio (XXXX JGY) was either lost in the post by the postal service, or lost at some point by the DVLA.

This is clearly not my fault and as such I believe the fine should be dropped.

After doing this, I went to the DVLA office to fill in a V14 to claim a refund on my remaining car tax for the Clio. This refund was for £76.66 and was sent to me in form of a cheque which I put into my bank account on 20th November 2007.

I was issued a refund, hence the DVLA received the V14, which means the DVLA received the SORN. This is another form of proof that I declared to the DVLA that the Clio was off the road and as a result I am not responsible for paying any fines.

Seeing as I completed all the actions required of me during this process, and the responsibility for the document being lost is not mine, I would like a letter from the DVLA stating that this matter is over and I am not due any fines.

Sincerely

Greg Hanson

jugster

11th January 2008, 16:56

Sorry if you said I cannot find reference to it, did you send it recorded delivery?

Juggy

kandy

11th January 2008, 17:02

Nice letter, the last paragraph seems a bit overly aggressive though.

Maybe just something simple like:

"I look forward to hearing from you regarding this error"

Also "I believe the fine should be dropped." sort of implies its valid and they should waive it :)

again maybe:

"I believe this fine has been sent to me in error"

gemini

11th January 2008, 17:04

Sorry if you said I cannot find reference to it, did you send it recorded delivery?

Juggy

The original yellow slip, no I did not (which may have been a big error)

But todays letter, oh yes. Most certainly.

JeRkY

11th January 2008, 17:25

I hope it works out for you, I just cant help feeling that filling out that SORN is going to present an issue. You state in your letter that you P/X the clio, then a paragraph down say you filed the SORN, which basicly states you still own the car but keep it off the public highway.

Good luck getting it sorted, im sure it will pan out OK.

Afty

11th January 2008, 17:41

The LetterThe problem you have, is that you state in the letter you declared the vehicle as SORN - but this is NOT the case, and your declaration was KNOWINGLY WRONG.

I know you may have mistaked SORN for something else, but the fact remains that you have given the DVLA false information. This may or may NOT have anything to do with the existing fine, but you may be making things worse by not getting all your facts straight before pursuing things (so aggressively) in writing.

I suggest you write out a timeline of what happened, when, and whom actioned it. Then supplement that with an additional set of "what should have been done by people outside my control" events.
Finally, compare this timeline to what *should* have happened - you can probably work this out from the small print and self-help leaflets available - you can get most/all of these online.

However, the SORN thing could well blow up in your face - you have made a legal declaration claiming the car is off the road when it is DEFINITELY not off the road (it has been sold to a dealership). If I were you I would try to resolve this issue before I pressed the matter any further.

I have no idea how serious a false SORN declaration is, but my guess would be that an £80 fine would be getting off lightly, particularly considering there may be other issues too (claiming a refund for the 31st of a month the vehicle was on the road etc.)

gemini

11th January 2008, 18:04

The problem you have, is that you state in the letter you declared the vehicle as SORN - but this is NOT the case, and your declaration was KNOWINGLY WRONG.

I know you may have mistaked SORN for something else, but the fact remains that you have given the DVLA false information. This may or may NOT have anything to do with the existing fine, but you may be making things worse by not getting all your facts straight before pursuing things (so aggressively) in writing.

I suggest you write out a timeline of what happened, when, and whom actioned it. Then supplement that with an additional set of "what should have been done by people outside my control" events.
Finally, compare this timeline to what *should* have happened - you can probably work this out from the small print and self-help leaflets available - you can get most/all of these online.

However, the SORN thing could well blow up in your face - you have made a legal declaration claiming the car is off the road when it is DEFINITELY not off the road (it has been sold to a dealership). If I were you I would try to resolve this issue before I pressed the matter any further.

I have no idea how serious a false SORN declaration is, but my guess would be that an £80 fine would be getting off lightly, particularly considering there may be other issues too (claiming a refund for the 31st of a month the vehicle was on the road etc.)

Oh ****. Man now im bricking it.

The thing is though I was in the DVLA when I filled out that form. Surely if I was not supposed to fill out that section of the form the bloke at the DVLA office should have removed that part of the form. Or told me to fill out a new one and not to fill out that part of the form.

The thing is though, it is off the road when I gave it to the dealer. It is not on the public road rather it is in the privately owned forecourt. Surely that is not a false decloration, surely that is a true declaration.

Having said that now though, it appears you are correct and I should not have filled out that part of the form :s

God this sucks. Il be so gutted if that letter drops me in more **** than I was already in.

Now im running around in circles. If only the DVLA were not such gangsters and actually used common sense and some human deceny I could have cleared this up with a phone call yesterday.

Tim^

11th January 2008, 18:20

gemini

11th January 2008, 18:36

I may not be a genius, but speaking as someone with more debt than you can imagine, and has dealt with it badly.
Listen to the other advice your being given here, but chill out, its not like your going to jail or anything, who cares if you cant pay it now? whether its your fault or not, there are worse things.

Thats not what im worrying about. Im worrying it will all get out of control and I will end up with a huge mountain of paperwork and debt I need to deal with. Or the worst case scenario I am forced into surrendering my current car either as a direct result of this or as another consequence. Plus as well it could affect my credit rating which I have worked very hard to keep it good. My parents dont have very good credit so I had a difficult starting block in getting credit to buy the Clio originally. I worked SO hard to keep paying for that car and it paid off for me when I bought the Mondeo. I got a far better APR rate than I did previously.

Its really getting me down at the minute as if this all goes pear shaped I could be faced with a large lump of debt I cant afford and spend the next several years undoing the damage caused by one tiny little lost piece of paper or a misunderstanding I had while in the DVLA office. Realistically, my mind wasnt fully concentrated on the V14 while I was sorting that. I was far more interested in getting out of there as quickly as possable to go for a drive in my new car.

Lesson learned though for next time. Make sure you do everything yourself and keep records of when you did it.

Shazz

11th January 2008, 19:11

Thats not what im worrying about. Im worrying it will all get out of control and I will end up with a huge mountain of paperwork and debt I need to deal with. Or the worst case scenario I am forced into surrendering my current car either as a direct result of this or as another consequence. Plus as well it could affect my credit rating which I have worked very hard to keep it good. My parents dont have very good credit so I had a difficult starting block in getting credit to buy the Clio originally. I worked SO hard to keep paying for that car and it paid off for me when I bought the Mondeo. I got a far better APR rate than I did previously.

How about, use the best case scenario, speak to the dealer and get them to cough up, and stop dithering over a decision? If the worst comes to the worst it's only £80. I had a fine like this for jumping a red light a year or so ago. I still stand by the fact that it changed instantly. But given the choice, i'd rather pay the fine before it goes into the hands of the baliffs. Sure you won't be able to afford something for a few weeks, such as food. Just buy cheap value ****.

I'm a student, i'm in a lot more debt than you'd ever imagine. Yet I manage to pay internet, phone bills, mobile bills, transport bills, car insurance and tax, rent, petrol, gym fees, food, oh and go to LANs on ~5k a year, and still have change (oh and i managed to pay my fine quite easily). You really shouldnt have a problem paying for £80 being in fulltime employment. Claiming you can't afford it is just a stupid, petty excuse.

kandy

11th January 2008, 19:43

The problem you have, is that you state in the letter you declared the vehicle as SORN - but this is NOT the case, and your declaration was KNOWINGLY WRONG.

Perfectly valid point, but it all comes down to intent. The guys made a mistake, and it shouldn't be that hard to resolve. A mistake is different from making a false SORN declaration and driving it in the meantime while trying to dodge tax and getting caught.

I know its not that black and white (especially with anything related to government departments), but making the effort to contact them to resolve it is still the right first step.

Hope it works out Gemini!

JeRkY

11th January 2008, 20:22

Indeed, you made a genuine mistake, you just need to take your time as Afty said, gather your evidence from the dealership that you handed the car over as a part exchange and go to the DVLA (or write to them) fully prepared and certain of the facts and figures. Otherwise you will get confused and that will just build confusion with any one you deal with.

First off though, calm down and take it easy. It isnt the end of the world, and im sure it will work out ok in the end.

Apollo

11th January 2008, 20:49

they only admitted losing those peeps, could have done same thing with his :)

I'd go to the dvla where u went orginally. but i get a bank statement showing u paid in cheque for the tax refund, unless they gave cash and take it with u

Also going to the garage to ask for copys of paperwork u filled out on 31/10 before hand might be an idea.

gl

Portia

11th January 2008, 20:54

Calm Down Folks :)

The worst case is that it will end up in front of a magistrate, who will listen, reasonably, to all sides of the case and make a judgement based on the facts.

The SORN form will also have a declaration along the lines of 'to the best of my knowledge, the facts are true blagh blagh blagh'. To best of your knowledge, you were making a true statement.

You say the form was filled in at the DVLA office? Did you speak to a representative about the case at all? If so and it wasn't picked up, it is a mitigation, likewise if you have simply followed advice supplied by the garage, who are deemed competent when it comes to these situation, it is a mitigation.

As I see it, the best thing is to explain exactly what you did, what you were advised, by whom and when, to the DVLA and they should see it is an honest mistake and not worth pursuing.

Afty

11th January 2008, 23:49

Yeah, re-reading my last post it's a bit alarmist. Take your time, establish what actually happened, what should have happened and look at the discrepancies.

Ultimately, as someone mentioned, there's no criminal offences here, and no jail time... I know you don't have £80 lying spare... but it's hardly going to force you into selling a kidney. Being skint for a couple of weeks is a bad thing, but that's probably the worst you can expect - just make sure you stay on top of it, and check up on the SORN thing - volunteer that you may have made a mistake BEFORE they start to query it...

lyn

12th January 2008, 06:33

As i said way back in the thread try the citizens advice, they will know exactly what to do and how to go about it. They may all be voluteers but they are trained to help and have all the information there in the manuals they are issued.

gemini

12th January 2008, 09:44

Cen0bitE

12th January 2008, 11:39

Don't put up with that crap. If you had questions you needed answers to, you should have stayed at the window and kept repeating your questions until either a manager came down, or security escorted you from the building. Use their own tactics against them.

just for advice. this is the worst idea ever and wont get you anywhere. all this will mean is that the person you are seriously pissing off will just quote the rulebook at you and you will get nowhere.

try being friendly and understand that the person you are talking to may not be ABLE to do anything to help you, they didnt make up the rules.

fair enough if you get a complete arse stick a complaint in. but being an arse youself will get you nowhere.

incidently i work for a government department and while there are plenty of arseholes, there are also plenty of people like me who will do what we can to help you, but understand we are at the whims of how the organisation works and there are only so many rules we can bend.

Elkeeed

12th January 2008, 12:13

we are at the whims of how the organisation works and there are only so many rules we can bend.

This is why government departments suck. I'm sure its often just used as an excuse but even when it is not, common sense should come into play rather than blindly sticking to the rules no matter what.

I had a problem when their new system came in that my paper tax disk was one month out of sync with their system and it took months to resolve simply because 'they wern't allowed to change the date', (thats not the computer system btw, its 'the rules') and they couldn't give me a new tax disc because the old one hadn't expired yet. Any half sensible person would ignore the rule for that special case and stop wasting everybody's time. But it seems if you work for the government you check your brain in at the front desk when you arrive to work in the morning.

gemini

6th February 2008, 11:01

Ok. As a final update to this.

I have just recieved a reply from my letter stating that I am still liable for the fine. I have now settled this at an early payment rate of £40.

So, lesson learned the hard way, and advice for everyone else selling a motor.

1) Make sure YOU keep in control and in charge of all important paperwork. DON'T let anyone else do it for you.
2) Send EVERYTHING via recorded delivery.
3) If you do not recieve a confirmation letter within 4 weeks of sending away the V5, CHASE UP THE DVLA PRONTO.

I hope others can learn from my mistakes so it doesnt happen again to any of you.

gemini

6th February 2008, 11:03

I would like to again thank everyone who offered help.

Thank you.

Without sounding like some long winded oscar speech, thanks for the support, ideas and generally calming words. You are all aces in my book :)

Afty

6th February 2008, 11:12

3) If you do not recieve a confirmation letter within 4 weeks of sending away the V5, CHASE UP THE DVLA PRONTO.Would like to add to this, that if you are sending so important that it getting lost in the post or lost at destination would get you a fine... SEND IT "SIGNED FOR" - doesn't cost much, and puts the onus on the enemy to prove you did something wrong.

EvilGav

6th February 2008, 18:49

Just out of interest Gemini, did you get a receipt from the dealer for the car you traded in ???

AFAIK that is also proof of change of ownership - rememeber when I part x'd a car previously, speeding fines came in, sent copy of trade in receipt, never heard a thing more.

Pingman

6th February 2008, 21:18

Would like to add to this, that if you are sending so important that it getting lost in the post or lost at destination would get you a fine... SEND IT "SIGNED FOR" - doesn't cost much, and puts the onus on the enemy to prove you did something wrong.

As the man said:

Ok. As a final update to this.

I have just recieved a reply from my letter stating that I am still liable for the fine. I have now settled this at an early payment rate of £40.

So, lesson learned the hard way, and advice for everyone else selling a motor.

1) Make sure YOU keep in control and in charge of all important paperwork. DON'T let anyone else do it for you.
2) Send EVERYTHING via recorded delivery.
3) If you do not recieve a confirmation letter within 4 weeks of sending away the V5, CHASE UP THE DVLA PRONTO.

I hope others can learn from my mistakes so it doesnt happen again to any of you.