EVEs learning curve.

[WhiteKnight]

This is a bit of a ramble based on some comments ive heard online... might not be that coherant... but there you go....

<ramble>

There has been some talk amongst the new players about EVEs rather steep learning curve and I'd like to offer a a response to that.

From my perspective I never really thought the curve was that steep at all. Especially now with the current tutorial system. You get shown the ropes of mining, shooting, market trading, and running missions. And it gives you a good grounding in all areas of the game.

From there if you want to go off into the game world and forge your own destiny, joining corps, running missions etc the learning is very simple case of trial and error. Or look at the toptions, and make an informed choice.

Someone made a comment that without being told what to fit to his ship he would have had no idea what to do. The thing to remember here is if you are following Aadvarks guide to Minmatar then, by his own admission, you are taking the "hard mode" option. Also you are being groomed for a specific path (pvp pewpew) and in order to go down that path in a optimum way and reach an acceptable level of pewpew in the shortest amount of time, you need to train certain skills, in a certain order, and fit certain modules to certian ships.

I liken playing EVE it to driving a car.

Once you have passed your test (done the tutorial) you can go off and drive around, and do your own thing. Its fairly easy by that point. You can make a few mistakes here and there, but its no major problem. You might get a better car every now and then, and might consider taking on a track day for a laugh, and occasionally gun it down the back roads, but other than that its fairly easy going.

Aardvarks Driving School on the other hand is trying to teach newly passed drivers to be a pro-street racer in 7 days. Its going to seem hard.

Keeping the car analogy. Upgrading your ship with stuff on the market is similar to walking into halfords. There are millions of options and for the most part a new driver will have no idea what most of them do. All you know is you want to make your car go faster. So you go in a look around the shop for "go faster items" (in the market look at engines / propulsion) and read the descriptions and compare. Or You`d use external info like magazines etc to tell you which is better (in eve that would be Eve mon / EFT / online guides).

If you could just drop into the game and know exactly what you need to do to get the perfect setup and have it done instantly there would be no real "game". Just flying and shooting. And if you want that go play homeworld or Freelancer.



Ultimately everything the experienced players are telling you is stuff they have learned "through experience" and the game doesnt expect you to be able to just know this stuff. They are helping you bypass some of the meandering you would do if you did it yourself in order to get a more refined character quickly. This is, however, at the detriment of "functionality" as you are training specifics and not nessecarily what you might need to have a more varied experience. PvP skills are only one aspect of the game.



</ramble>

I think i said everything i had to say. Meh... My point is that i dont think the game isnt as hard as it might appear. Just fitting all the learning in before slan is maybe exaggerating the learning curve a bit.

[Aardvark]

The skill guide a) isn't mine and b) is an all-encompassing guide for Minmatar, so being told to train over a dozen skills to level 5 'asap' makes things seem pretty hard, yes. Minmatar isn't really hard mode, thats just the 'I'm Minmatar its awesome' talking. You get the best frigate and two cruisers that are very much in the top half of the class, so early on you're at an advantage.

Late game its a little more difficult as you have to train a few more skills to become fully proficient compared to other races, but its not a huge penalty (for example my main PvP character still hasn't really paid attention to either shields or missiles, which apparently you're supposed to).

The guide in the specific MPUK getting started guide is much shorter, and lists a whopping two skills to get as soon as you can. After that there's no huge rush to go in any particular direction with skills, as you can be highly effective in PvP, and you were already pretty much ready for PvE with the starting skillset, up to level 2 missions at least.

The best advice I can think of is 'read a lot'. I don't really have relevant experience of starting up in Eve, as I 'played' without really playing for 6 months or more, mainly due to not knowing wtf to do. In the end I jumped into the SHC forums, asked loads of questions, read loads of replies and 6 months later I was in probably one of the top 3 PvP corps in Eve, if not the number 1. I'm not sure quite how, as I still consider myself terrible at Eve though, but at least I talk a good game ;)

I think the point of that story is that you feeling like you don't know wtf about various things is normal, and you'll feel like that for a long time. The best advice I can give is to nail down a ship you like the look and sound of from reading forums, and train accordingly. You end up filling in little gaps while at the same time opening up ships and modules you can actually use. It's kind of a 'build your own' progression compared to other games, but unlocking new ships remains highly satisfying as you get to play with shiny new toys :)

[WhiteKnight]

Sorry Aard, i know it sounded like i was having a bit of a go at you, i wasn't. Just pointing out that the summarised guides that you have produced, while very useful, can make it seem a little "OMFG" to a new player when in reality the game doesn't have to be like that, and in most cases isn't. The game is very much what you make of it.

[Aardvark]

That guide wasn't very 'summarised' :p I've changed the title to make it seem less like its a newbie's handbook type thing though.

[WhiteKnight]

Well they are more summarised than some I have seen.

[Deman]

The main thing is the game does not lead you by the hand like every other mmo out their (read WoW, EQ, AC, GW etc).

There is no set path of you need to do this, that and whatever then progress to new zone with bigger baddies of different names and sizes. The only similarity to this is Agent missions and is really why most people begin doing missions.

It's a nice way for people to experiment with different setups and figure out for yourself what kit does what, what works and what is utterly useless(defender missiles).

It also gives (as a beginner) a sense of achievement in earning your own money instead of relying on hand outs(which help massively at the start) but should not be relied upon.

The downside to Agent missions is they will become a terrible grind because there is only so many variations and to reach the next level of agent you need to reach around 1.40 faction standing with whatever faction you picked.

The absolute main thing to remember is to always ask questions. Nobody is perfect and knows everything there is to know so ask away, especially with so many new people starting.

[Afty]

The game guides I've seen are far too advanced to help people starting out, and from the wrong perspective.

It needs stuff like "you need to pick guns which best suit the bonuses from your ships or race... the races main preferences are....." and "You equip things onto your ship like guns, shields, electronic warfare rigs etc. in various slots. This uses energy".
And
""You start the game with some basic skills, but you can buy many more skills to learn from level 1 at the marketplace"

etc.

[Aardvark]

The game guides I've seen are far too advanced to help people starting out, and from the wrong perspective.

It needs stuff like "you need to pick guns which best suit the bonuses from your ships or race... the races main preferences are....." and "You equip things onto your ship like guns, shields, electronic warfare rigs etc. in various slots. This uses energy".
And
""You start the game with some basic skills, but you can buy many more skills to learn from level 1 at the marketplace"

etc.

Pretty sure most of this is in the tutorial.

[Thrud]

Sounds like you are getting the hang of it Afty.

I know you have mentioned the learning curve regularly. How are you finding it now?

Don't write off missions as a great way to learn, and friendly pew pew with your corp is never wrong for testing setups.

OH...and n00b much? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=258284)

[SarGara]

A couple of my work mates have started playing EvE so its prompted me to re-activate my account too. Ive got to say that if it wasnt for them being able to come up and ask me things, or them mess around with EFT (EvE Fitting Tool) and ask me to look over their setups i honestly dont think they would still be playing. Theres just too much information, its overwhelming and without someone like me for them to talk to im sure they would have got bored/confused/frustrated long ago and left.

At present i think EvE suffers from having "the things you are taught" basics shown by the tutorial, and then "the things you should know" in regards to player know how, the dos and the donts.

So yes i agree with the comments about EvE being a very steep learning curve.

[Thrud]

SarGara, that's how I feel about Eve.. I want to introduce people to it, but you have to be willing to give some time to show them how to play, explain things,and even then...

[kandy]

It is very confusing to begin with, but not at all hard to pick up within your free trial.

One major thing I've realised is dont just go straight to the market and try to random a load of cool looking stuff once you've finished your training and got a few ISK. It's not like WoW where its a tossup between +3 stamina or +3 agility.

First ship build I did was ****e and almost put me off the game (my fault, shocking item selection)

Taking the time to research my options thoroughly, and train the required skills and then go purchase my shiny new shizz = much more enjoyable experience and much pewpew :)

And the reason this game can be so confusing is because yes it isn't WoW. It's not "look im another mage with the same epics and abilities everyone else has". Much more varied hence much more complex.

I wrote this game off the first time I tried it but now I've taken the time to give it a proper test over a couple of weeks I've converted my account to full.

Also don't be afraid to ask questions, people only get annoyed when you expect your hand to be held every step of the way, or the cardinal sin ask something thats in the first 5 minutes of the tutorial :)

[WhiteKnight]

One major thing I've realised is dont just go straight to the market and try to random a load of cool looking stuff once you've finished your training and got a few ISK. It's not like WoW where its a tossup between +3 stamina or +3 agility.

Thats where tools like EFT (Eve Fitting Tool) come in useful.

[Thrud]

EFT is very handy... but it can't replace experience and some general principals.

[Anim]

As im sure people have found out already im always willing to dish out the advice when im around on eve or irc, also forums if need be (Deman, get 'Connections' to level 3 and you can skip lvl 1 missions).

I think one of the larger problems people have is that there is so much available to you as soon as you start, other games have a beginning which could easily be linked to the shallow end where you first learn to swim. Eve drops you from a 15ft diving board in to the deep end and shouts "stop drowning" after a while. What people dont notice is that theres various floaty things you can cling on to a while whilst you get your bearings :D

with a good corp around you its easy to pick up, forums are a great place to learn about ships and fittings. Some of the guys i fly with have spent the last 2-3 weeks just reading up about the industrial side of eve and we now have a plan to get that kinda stuff operational to supply ourselves with income for pvp.

[Thrud]

Maybe a question and answer thread is needed... as I have noticed that people ask for help all over the place.

I have mentioned the old social skills to a few people as well, so as much as we want to get into PVP it seems missions are the order of the day.

Maybe some basic lvl 1 frigate setups for all 4 races as well.

[I R Crazy Hippo]

EVEs greatest asset and biggest weakness to new players is that it doesnt say "this is how you do it" it says this is hows things are done and lets you get on and experiment.

always ask questions as there is soo much to know that noone knows it all. even vets have questions. for example i dont know anything about invention or booster manufacturing, they werent in the game when i started and i have never been into production so i dont know. all i do is shoot people and get shot :)

[kandy]

Massive tip for newbies as well, learn how to use your overlay properly!!

Being able to set and load different option sets (for stations/NPC/Gates) etc. is one of the best things I did when starting out.

[Afty]

Massive tip for newbies as well, learn how to use your overlay properly!!

Being able to set and load different option sets (for stations/NPC/Gates) etc. is one of the best things I did when starting out.Soo errr. Want to tell us how this is done?

[Afty]

How are you finding it now?

Don't write off missions as a great way to learnI must have done about 20 or 30 missions, but I haven't learned a thing from them that I didn't learn in the first one... what am I supposed to be taking away from them, they all seem to be identical (shoot some groups of guys, if it's too hard kite some, then warp out repair and return...)

[SarGara]

Perhaps a "MPUKS golden rules" style thread for EvE. Where we can each contribute something and have 1 topic with easy to read information, short and to the point.

"Under NO circumstances are Hull Repairers worth fitting"

As example :P

And Afty, when doing missions stick to 1 agent if possible. Eventually your standing with that contact will increase to the point where they escalate you up the chain to the next set of missions (ex: lv1s > lv2s). When you turn in a mission you may notice a "go and see my friend in XXXXX" as a hint. If your struggling just fly around the system your in, see if there are any "Level II" agents who are now available to you as a result of increasing your standing.

[Thrud]

I must have done about 20 or 30 missions, but I haven't learned a thing from them that I didn't learn in the first one... what am I supposed to be taking away from them, they all seem to be identical (shoot some groups of guys, if it's too hard kite some, then warp out repair and return...)

I guess in some ways you want to be seeing if you can improve things so you DON'T warp out.

I think more ways to experiment when you have more levels of missions available. Trying to do harder missions in smaller ships for EG.

[Thrud]

Perhaps a "MPUKS golden rules" style thread for EvE. Where we can each contribute something and have 1 topic with easy to read information, short and to the point.

"Under NO circumstances are Hull Repairers worth fitting"

As example :P

THEY ARE!

For free repairs after missions that go bad etc!

[SarGara]

You shouldnt let your ship get to the point where your taking hull damage in the first place tho Thrud! Its far too risky to let it happen to begin with. You should only allow your armor to be damaged and be repairing that, not your hull.

[snowblind]

I'm normally warping out if my shields are getting low :P

[Thrud]

You shouldnt let your ship get to the point where your taking hull damage in the first place tho Thrud! Its far too risky to let it happen to begin with. You should only allow your armor to be damaged and be repairing that, not your hull.

Real men structure tank!

[Aardvark]

THEY ARE!

For free repairs after missions that go bad etc!

Return to station, fit hull repper, undock, rep to full, dock, unfit hull repper.

[Deman]

Since everyone mentions lvl 2 agents and nobody appears to have explained how they do it I shall.

Right click on your agent, Show Info.
In the top there will be an Icon for the faction you are doing missions for, click that.
This will show the factions information, one of the tabs is Agents.
This will show you the available agents, their level and their quality.
If there are no level 2 agents available, then right click show info on the lowest quality level 2 agent in the list.
In his details will be a required faction for him to talk to you. Once you meet that you should be able to do missions with him.

Edit: Please note Level 2 missions are a heafty step up from level 1 missions. If your still in frigates I would suggest maybe grouping up with another person. This will also help you learn the fleet/gang commands needed when doing pvp.

[Afty]

And Level 2 agents get you... what precisely?

[Ryvita]

More challenging missions, which yield better loot, and give more bounties, Loyalty Points and cash rewards.

[Ryvita]

Pretty sure most of this is in the tutorial.

It occurs to me that those having re-activated an old account won't necessarily get lead into the tutorial sequence. For those people doing this, it may be worth starting a second character purely for the purpose of running through the new tutorial system. It is a lot more developed than it used to be.

[Deman]

Like I said, missions can get boring fast as its affectively like grinding levels, its a simple way to get you started, after that its upto you what you want to do in the game.

[Aardvark]

It occurs to me that those having re-activated an old account won't necessarily get lead into the tutorial sequence. For those people doing this, it may be worth starting a second character purely for the purpose of running through the new tutorial system. It is a lot more developed than it used to be.

Oh good point, I can't remember if the new tutorial was in when Afty started. Do what Ryv says, it is a good plan.

[kandy]

Soo errr. Want to tell us how this is done?

Will do when I get home, can't remember off the top of my head.

[SarGara]

Hmm a 2nd char for the tutorial... Im actually thinking about doing this partly to jog my memory of areas of EvE ive never really experienced and partly to see whats its like now. When i started playing i just skipped through the tutorial thinking my knowledge of the beta would see me straight.

[Towneh]

I personally feel that EVE is a lot better off these days for new players than it used to be.
At the beginning it used to be a quick tutorial that showed you how to kill a drone, and mine an asteroid, then you're left to your own devices.
Obviously the tutorial has been greatly expanded upon and with a "newbie" channel automatically joined to for new accounts, there is a lot more help at hand!

[Blood Sport]

Perhaps a "MPUKS golden rules" style thread for EvE. Where we can each contribute something and have 1 topic with easy to read information, short and to the point.

"Under NO circumstances are Hull Repairers worth fitting"

As example :P



"Minmatar - Probe (http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/frigates/minmatar/586.asp) is a excellent, small scale, cargo runner"

On the thread subject

I think the big problem is people try to learn to many different subjects at once, while this was possible when eve first come out, eve is a completely different game now. There are so many skills, modules, ships, ship types, manufactuing processes and pewpew tactics etc. That its no longer possible to learn it all from the strart. But the perception that you can has persisted i feel.