Hammer abuse on DM?

[Deckard]

Hi there

I just want to bring to admin's attention that a few unpleasant things happened yesterday (8th nov) on DM2 server, around 11h30 (GMT+1, so maybe 10H30 UK time).
On a couple of maps, Players Bloob and Ducks were heavily "hammering" around, which may not be abuse by itself during the game, but they were also systematically taking advantage of the spawnkill protection to do so. It irritated a few players (Helix maybe, but I don't want to speak in his name).
On Deck16, with bloob camped the redeemer teleport and directly and repeatedly hammering teleported players. I asked him to stop, he didn't, so I called !admin, but none was available it seems. When players stopped using the teleport, he stayed in the elevators, going up and down from an elevator to another, and continued hammering...

I let you see if this can be considered abuse or not, please let me know (I know you will ;) )

By the way, congratulations for the great job that has been done on the servers (DM and CTF), they are running very nicely these days.

[BullDog]

Hi there

I just want to bring to admin's attention that a few unpleasant things happened yesterday (8th nov) on DM2 server, around 11h30 (GMT+1, so maybe 10H30 UK time).
On a couple of maps, Players Bloob and Ducks were heavily "hammering" around, which may not be abuse by itself during the game, but they were also systematically taking advantage of the spawnkill protection to do so. It irritated a few players (Helix maybe, but I don't want to speak in his name).
On Deck16, with bloob camped the redeemer teleport and directly and repeatedly hammering teleported players. I asked him to stop, he didn't, so I called !admin, but none was available it seems. When players stopped using the teleport, he stayed in the elevators, going up and down from an elevator to another, and continued hammering...

I let you see if this can be considered abuse or not, please let me know (I know you will ;) )

By the way, congratulations for the great job that has been done on the servers (DM and CTF), they are running very nicely these days.

yer - I see this on a semi regular basis on Deck16 only - lame assholes camping deemer portal with hammer.

but it's usually late at night when everyone had gone to bed

[Adrena1in]

I let you see if this can be considered abuse or not, please let me know (I know you will ;) )
Don't quite see myself how this can be considered abuse. Camping can be a bit lame sometimes, but it's not cheating or anything. And if these players were only using the Impact Hammer, didn't that put them at a bit of a disadvantage against other players with Shock Combos and RPGs at their disposal?

P.S. There are others ways of getting up to the Redeemer platform. ;)


(This does remind me a bit of a time I was playing on Morpheus. A couple of players were using only the Enforcer. They were so good and accurate, (compared to "noobs" like me), that they were winning easily. Perhaps they were aim-botting, because it seemed that every single shot they fired was hitting home. Whatever, it was annoying, but I don't believe it was abuse.)

[Pileyrei]

The only problem I see in the first post is the portal camping with the hammer in the deemer room. Sorry no one was around, I'll keep an eye out for that behaviour.

Piley

[MrHERO]

As far as I know "camping" on it self is NOT a bannable offence, yet "portal camping" is and therefore they prolly would be warned/kicked/banned if an admin was present. In the end I believe any action interfering with fair play should be taken a look at if possible so you're not wrong to have called an admin in my opinion.

[BullDog]

Don't quite see myself how this can be considered abuse. Camping can be a bit lame sometimes, but it's not cheating or anything. And if these players were only using the Impact Hammer, didn't that put them at a bit of a disadvantage against other players with Shock Combos and RPGs at their disposal?


hammer use per se is not abuse - it is a legitimate weapon - however if someone hammer camps a portal on say Face then they would last about 2 seconds before a kickban.

camping the deemer area on Deck is extremely lame, pathetic and in my eyes goes against the spirit of play as it takes no skill what-so-ever.

hard to believe after 7 years some dickheads will still insist on pulling this stunt.

having said all that - players attention gets so focussed on killing the hammer twat that they become easy pickings for me and racing up to 50 kills is dead easy :D

oh wait - that might be lame too - oh well nm ;)

[Flash_]

Piston camping a portal will get you banned. It's lame, everyone knows it's lame, it allows no chance to defend yourself and it's expressly against our rules.

If you see somebody do it, say "!admin - Player is portal camping."

Even if it's the middle of the night and there's no admin around, we'll put a tag on that player and quietly spec them some time in the future.

[TheWatcher]

there is piston camp detect in smofphalarm. if you do not want to install the mutator it is possible for me to make other small mutator that do the same thing. also there is the source code so if multiplay staff know unrealscript he can modify this to adapt it to the server.

[Neophyte]

If you really think we are installing anything you have coded think again. Go troll elsewhere Azura.

[Tarantella]

Server rules always apply but as Adrena1in mentioned earlier, a piston camper on deck would be an easy frag after first fragging those lurking on the perimeter of the action. Cough..... Bulldog ;)


Face piston campers can all be dealt with within normal play on a public server. Though I do appreciate that beginners have trouble getting the necessary translocation action going, sniping back from the enemy base deals effectively with two of the portals.

[Flash_]

Actually... Having played some more on DM2 and DM4 I think the spawnkill protection /is/ a little too long. It does give an advantage to Piston merchants like myself on small maps who spawn with it and use it on the way to a better weapon.

I've just reduced the respawn protection time from 3 to 2 seconds - might even go down to one second if there's enough support for it. (Note - protection ends as soon as somebody grabs a pickup regardless of time)

[Island Guy]

Doesn't give much of a break to high ping players with slow connections . just makes them cannon fodder for spawn killers . Heck why not go all the way and make all the servers no spawn protection and we can set the bots too godlike . That should make the servers more fun .

Even on the low skill server as it is no one that is a low skill player has a chance again the bots . How is anyone supposed to improve their skill if your hammered to death on re spawn by spawn killers or over skilled bots . It just Don't make any sense but that's just my opinion . Not that that accounts for anything it seems anymore . We dropped the intermediate server and bumped the Bot skill up on the low skill server. Am I the only one that thinks this is an odd way for new Inexperince players to improve their skill . Hard to tell players they are not low skill when the Bots on the server are set to open skill levels . Has anyone really given this any thought . when bots are getting rampages and Dominating something is not right . May as well just remove the lowskill server too and we can just run elite servers for the elite players .

Haveing a bad day here so excuse the Rant and sorry to hijack your thread Flash

[[CoW]J-Raw]

whoa I played on our DM-Deck16][ server and won a game!

There was person who camped it happened only once to me.
Result: Numpad 9 - "Loser." - Shock Rifle up! [combo] -noob dies!!-

[Batty]

Even on the low skill server as it is no one that is a low skill player has a chance again the bots . How is anyone supposed to improve their skill if your hammered to death on re spawn by spawn killers or over skilled bots . It just Don't make any sense but that's just my opinion . Not that that accounts for anything it seems anymore .

I agree Island Guy .... if I chose to have a game on a server with just bots 9 times out of 10 they win - they kill me before I've taken 2 steps usually. The low skill server SHOULD be somewhere that lower skilled players have a chance.

:(:

[TheWatcher]

If you really think we are installing anything you have coded think again. Go troll elsewhere Azura.

as i say you can modify this code to make your mod ;)

[angry_man]

i get email that say that there is ban on forum. if you are good person than why do you use this method? also you say that i have problem but why it is that you are angry? ppl do not disappear because you do not want them to exist. also i am not a bad person.

[Neophyte]

go seek help, and dont come back thanks :)

[Dentist]

If you're banned from a forum, that means the owners of said forum or their appointed representatives have revoked your access. This is not a free-forum, there are no rights or free speech here, if you're banned you're banned. Stay away from the forums, the UT admins obviously do not want you here nor do they value your input.

Why stay in a community where you are not wanted?

[MrHERO]

I just wanted to add that I do think Azura is a cool guy and I'm certain I'm not the only one, but that's just my two cents' worth...

[jacques]

If you're banned from a forum, that means the owners of said forum or their appointed representatives have revoked your access. This is not a free-forum, there are no rights or free speech here, if you're banned you're banned. Stay away from the forums, the UT admins obviously do not want you here nor do they value your input.

Why stay in a community where you are not wanted?

heu... i understand this. also i know the law on the internet and i will respect these. i see now that the staff do not want me here but no person ask me to leave or to stop to post! you can verify this with search on forum. but no it is just ban. if some one do this then i agree. it is simple!

go seek help, and dont come back thanks :)

ok i will get this help. it is nice to make exemple of me for other player. so i am very bad guy now. you ask that i do not come back and i agree to this. why you not say this first time? it is not so difficult and it is better than ban. you are like old policeman that see all person like criminal? but i will not make this a insult.

before i go maybe you will consider to make multiplay so that it is same nice place for player from united kingdom and ALSO player outside.

you are nice ppl in england but sometime they do not understand everything of ppl outside.there is famous old story about american and french men that want to make deal so they talk. then french man say it is midi and it is time to eat so they eat for 1 or 2 hour. when the american see this they leave because they see the french man like they are lazy. what they do not understand is that french man sometime work until 19h00/20h00/21h00.

it is not fair to kick player if he speak other language but you are the master you do like you decide. i do not speak for myself because i can not go on dm server now and this is for all player. you must not make the mistake to think that they are lazy or stupid.

arnold say i will not be back. byebye :D:.

[Dentist]

Generally a ban is telling you not to come back... Get the hint rather than evading the ban perhaps?

also i know the law on the internet

This made me giggle, there are laws applicable to the internet now?

[jacques]

Hi, I have no friends and am a complete and utter twat

That is all

edit: thank you for this insult

[jacques]

Generally a ban is telling you not to come back... Get the hint rather than evading the ban perhaps?

it is not a good method of communication. i come back because i like to come. also i play sometime on ra server.

This made me giggle, there are laws applicable to the internet now?

yes you do not know this:D:? for example there is european and also international law that say that individual must have access to all his private information, to see this information and to delete this information also. if you take exemple of vbulletin forum script it is illegal.

it is strange because no person respect this on the internet but this will change in the future because if internet is now international there now exist local law also. also many country adopt law that tell isp to keep information of user for 6 month. so in the future the internet will be like life of every day. for exemple of site that discuss this topic seek "internet law" and "internet society" on google engine.

i go now. i think admin like to edit my message^^.

[Dentist]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[Flash_]

I just wanted to add that I do think Azura is a cool guy and I'm certain I'm not the only one, but that's just my two cents' worth...

I respect you for sticking up for a friend, but Azura has 'issues' and has uses a private agenda to attack specific people and Multiplay in general time and time again. He surfaces every now and then, often during one of our lan events, and causes trouble. A while ago it was by deliberately getting banned to gather information about a specific admin to pick fault, something I personally detested because I knew that admin was a straight person who was trying their best to help everyone.

Whatever Azura thinks about us, he cannot leave us alone. Every time he comes back and causes more trouble. I know he's done a lot of good work for the UT scene but as far as our servers and forum are concerned, we'd just wish he'd leave us alone to support those who appreciate the servers we provide for free.

[Neophyte]

I think he fancies us!! \o/

[Deckard]

Actually... Having played some more on DM2 and DM4 I think the spawnkill protection /is/ a little too long. It does give an advantage to Piston merchants like myself on small maps who spawn with it and use it on the way to a better weapon.

I've just reduced the respawn protection time from 3 to 2 seconds - might even go down to one second if there's enough support for it. (Note - protection ends as soon as somebody grabs a pickup regardless of time)
Using the hammer on the way to another weapon doesn't seem unfair to me, especially when a player keeps shooting you in the back during that time, expecting that the protection will end before you grab one (this happens also). Playing the game with hammer is not unfair to me either, requires good moving skills that I applause (being hammered after missing a shock combo is just bad for self esteem, but I can live with that ;) ).

But in this case, there was no intention to do anything else than hammering, the player just wanted to make a couple of extra frags while being spawn protected. Too bad, because the player had good skills and could have done well without ruining the game for some players.
As for the portal camping. I teleported several times to see if it was intentional or just defense* while waiting for the redeemer. After 4 or 5 kills in a row, it's obvious that it was deliberate. I Will try the "combo-cleaning" trick next time...
* during the same game, another player camped the teleport, but he wasn't very much skilled and not doing direct-hammering. It was more a beginner's mistake, and he stopped as soon as I asked him.

Whatever you do (increase or reduce protection time, add or remove mods), there will always be players to take too much advantage of it (=abuse). These cases might be delt individually (I know, it's time consuming!). I wasn't expecting you to immediately tune these things, because the gameplay is really nice and balanced so far, and something that works well on a small map will not on a big one. Thanks anyway, and I (we) will give you feedback on this one.

I just wanted to know if I was right to call an admin in these situations or not. Seems so, at least for one of the situations. Thanks for your answers.

[Adrena1in]

Even on the low skill server as it is no one that is a low skill player has a chance again the bots.

I agree wholeheartedly. I mentioned this a while back, and I have to say I'm quite annoyed that the BOTs are still insanely good on the Low Skill server. I'm not annoyed because they're too good for me, (though most of the time the are).

I'm annoyed that players like me get asked to take it easy, or to leave the server, or get kicked, because we're deemed too good for utter noobs and we might scare them off. Yet the BOTs are even BETTER, and don't show ANY mercy against noobs, and will actually put the noobs off even more than human players.

I find it quite hypocritical.

[Batty]

I'm annoyed that players like me get asked to take it easy, or to leave the server, or get kicked, because we're deemed too good for utter noobs and we might scare them off. Yet the BOTs are even BETTER, and don't show ANY mercy against noobs, and will actually put the noobs off even more than human players.

I find it quite hypocritical.

This is something that causes me concern too ..... but unfortunately due to the way the MPUK servers are managed we have been told that either all the servers have souped-up bots or none do. Personally I'd prefer the 'none' option, but a number of players complained that the bots were too easy when they were normal average bots :roll:.

[Adrena1in]

...we have been told that either all the servers have souped-up bots or none do.

Hmmm, that is a dilema, because while Inhuman BOTs on the newbie server is bad for noobs, Average BOTs can be annoying on the higher-level servers.

EDIT: Are the BOTs actually set to Random Skill? Or are they all set really high? When I've started games in the past with Random Skill, some have been crap, some excellent. Quite comparable to a server with real people on.

[Deckard]

When I've started games in the past with Random Skill, some have been crap, some excellent. Quite comparable to a server with real people on.

When I was born, the Random Skill mode was set to ON...
...I got the crap one ;)

[Island Guy]

This is something that causes me concern too ..... but unfortunately due to the way the MPUK servers are managed we have been told that either all the servers have souped-up bots or none do. Personally I'd prefer the 'none' option, but a number of players complained that the bots were too easy when they were normal average bots :roll:.

Yes I have heard that is the reason also but funny thing is it wasn't this way until just recently like last few months or so . So just what exactly has changed . Was there a policy change at multiplay that lead to this action of setting bots to higher skill or was it done to please the higher skilled players .Either way it just plain and simply ruined the low skill server for NEW INEXPERIENCED players which the server is intended for . We have more then enough servers for open skilled players why ruin the only Low Skill server we have left to please the higher skilled players . Bot skill was changed from Average to Adept . Seeing as most of the time the open skilled servers have lots of players on them why are they so concerned about the Bot skill setting . The only ones that benefit from this Bot setting are the Elite players . So it seems that it's piss on the low skill players again to make our Superior players happy and too bad for any of the lesser skilled players . We had our Rookie server removed ,so now players that are deemed over skilled for the NEW INEXPERIENCED player only server get to be sent to the open servers . Which is not right as most of them are not ready for the open servers and are way too good for low skill server . I count 14 open skilled UT 99 servers for open skilled players . Well it's obvious that low skill players have again been regulated as expendable and of no concern to the way these servers are run . My how quick we forget how it was to be a Newbie player and get your ass passed to you on a platter by a bunch of lame ass open skilled players . Open skilled players that most of I might add are not the least concerned about if you learn anything or are enjoying the game as long as their Stats are climbing .

And that is the view from here like it or not but this is how it is .

[Tarantella]

The bots on the low skill server were on the masterful setting when I dropped in yesterday evening (no other players around) and I agree that is too high. It was later reset to average which should be should be challenging for beginners though I do not know if the bots have custom settings or auto adjust to player skill settings on.


I was a newbie player 10 years ago when playing duke on wireplay for the first time. I got into a game with 3 very good players and got 3 kills 141 deaths.:>:

But I was firmly hooked into wanting to play again and again and play better and the fastest way to get better is to lose constantly to better players till you do get better.

My firm recommendations are to play on server with 3-5 other players only not bots.

[Flash_]

Using the hammer on the way to another weapon doesn't seem unfair to me, especially when a player keeps shooting you in the back during that time, expecting that the protection will end before you grab one (this happens also). Playing the game with hammer is not unfair to me either, requires good moving skills that I applause

I know piston uses skill, I still play the entire game just with the hammer :)

My point is that in the small spammy maps you can spawn quite close to another player, select and charge your piston and still have over 2 seconds of fully charged piston killing whilst invincible. I myself have scored frags whilst still under protection and that's obviously unfair as the fraggee had no change to defend themselves, and on small maps - nowhere to run to.

@ Island Guy
Note that I've only changed DM2, DM4 and DM5 since those have more small enclosed maps. I don't believe reducing the protection from a generous 3 to 2 seconds is going to affect anyone negatively.

Whatever you do (increase or reduce protection time, add or remove mods), there will always be players to take too much advantage of it (=abuse). These cases might be delt individually (I know, it's time consuming!). I wasn't expecting you to immediately tune these things, because the gameplay is really nice and balanced so far, and something that works well on a small map will not on a big one. Thanks anyway, and I (we) will give you feedback on this one.


Thank you! It does niggle when people moan all the time (there's a few who do nothing else) so constructive feedback is always good. We only want the servers full and for people to have fun.

[Flash_]

The bots on the low skill server were on the masterful setting when I dropped in yesterday evening (no other players around) and I agree that is too high.

They're set to "Auto" skill. More they're killed, the better they get.

This sucks because they don't "downgrade" until they've killed you several times and THEN don't downgrade until killed or map end. Especially with Loque a newbie won't stand a chance.

Unfortunately beyond my power to change. I know why it was done and it seemed like a good idea to be honest, but it really does hurt the newbie server. :(

[Island Guy]

They're set to "Auto" skill. More they're killed, the better they get.


Unfortunately beyond my power to change. I know why it was done and it seemed like a good idea to be honest, but it really does hurt the newbie server. :(


And what would that reason be for it being changed ?. Who does have power to change this or is it even a concern for these servers .

[Tarantella]

They're set to "Auto" skill. More they're killed, the better they get.

This sucks because they don't "downgrade" until they've killed you several times and THEN don't downgrade until killed or map end. Especially with Loque a newbie won't stand a chance.

Unfortunately beyond my power to change. I know why it was done and it seemed like a good idea to be honest, but it really does hurt the newbie server. :(


Well in my experience the bot implementation is buggy on several accounts

a)The server browser does not always update bot skill even when refreshed.When it reaches godlike in the server browser it does not get lower even when the real players are getting hammered even though the bot skill in game does decrease.

b)The botskill does not automatically reset when a new level starts but soon resets when players are killed.

c)The bots who reach godlike when autoskill is on seem much weaker than bots whos started a game on godlike setting.

d)A good player joining the lowskill server can quickly ramp up the bot skill to the detriment of lowskill players.

[BullDog]

hehe - played a full deck game last night with only hammer - managed to win when there were 7 or 8 players.
wished I'd demo'd it - one funny moment was when I lift jump up as someone was coming down to armour - we met mid air and he got smeared ;)

[Deckard]

@Flash

Played a couple of DM games yesterday. I'm sorry to say that the spawnkill protection seems far too short to me now, quite useless as it is. Instead of being occasionnally killed by a spanwkilled-protected hammer adept (for those who have missed previous episodes, see first post, it has nothing to do with BullDog's previous post ;) ), I was at the mercy of any kind of player, even newbies. In fractal, I sometimes could'nt touch the ground before being hit by a 'spammy' rocket. In Peak, some spawnpoints are in the rooms were people fight, so even if I managed to grab a gun, I had no time to switch. In DarkCity II, its hard to cross the street alive when you respawn there.
So you have my vote for a longer spawn protection duration. IMHO, the previous one was rather optimal in fact.

[Adrena1in]

wished I'd demo'd it

Changing the subject, (sorry), how does one do that? Does UT have a built-in option? I've got something called FRAPS, but it's useless really...too hard-drive intensive.

[Batty]

Open console and type 'demorec xxxxxx' where xxxxxx refers to whoever/whatever you're trying to demo. When finished, in console type 'stopdemo'.

It will be stored as a .dem file in your system folder.

To watch the demo, type in console 'demoplay xxxxxx'.

You can skip between players, watch any of them from a first person perspective etc. :)

[BullDog]

there is a demo manager for UT but I personally found it crashed my UT way too much

the manual command to do in console:

demorec [name]

so

demorec adrenalin1 [enter]
will start the demo running

to play it's demoplay [name]

but the demo itself must be in the UT/system folder or UT simply won't find it

[BullDog]

demo manager 3 is here:

http://clanbase.ggl.com/miscdl.php?did=612

[Mardyb]

I've found this thing quite useful!

Thanks BullDog!

[BullDog]

I've found this thing quite useful!

Thanks BullDog!

welc :)

[Adrena1in]

Great, I'll give that a try some time too.

Also, is there a command to view a player through their eyes, rather than a fixed third-person camera view? In LMS the other day I was OUT quite early, so I spectated the clear best player, and I was seeing his view of the game, and NOT seeing him from a third-person camera. His display was really jerky and I wondered if it was just lag, or some sort of BOT he was using, as he was insanely accurate.

[BullDog]

try
behindview 1 or behindview 0
in the console

[Adrena1in]

Well, demorec drops my game speed to about 20% it would seem. Still smooth, but just ultra-slow-mo. (On the plus side, it means I can record a demo and appear to be Godlike, because I have all the time in the world to line up my shots...makes it difficult to miss. On the negative side, going back to the normal game is then awful, as it seems ultra-speedy!!)

And "behindview" works, but almost the whole view is taken up by the weapon, which is a shame. :confused:

[Adrena1in]

They're set to "Auto" skill...Unfortunately beyond my power to change.

Well I guess someone's changed the BOT skill on the servers now, as they're as lame as anything. Popped onto the Low Skill server last night when it was pretty full and the standard was quite high, and had a bit of a blast. Then again later on when there were only 1 or 2 others, who perhaps weren't that good, and I got asked to leave almost straight away. When I popped back on later just to test something I got kicked almost straight away.

Bravo! :D:

[Mardyb]

I think there should be a server called the 'Casual UT players' (Who aren't quite good but not terrible) server. It would be packed with the likes of Me, Me and Me! :D:

[Adrena1in]

I'd play on that Server!! :D:

[[TrufF]Lazarus]

I'd play on that Server!! :D:

That server Closed down when TrufF Servers Closed a very sad day for UT :(:

[Flash_]

If you're thinking about Truff's Intermediate server;

1. Multiplay hosted it up until about a month ago, and it never got used. I don't mean "Not much", I mean maybe one player a month for a few minutes.

2. It was always for "Not quite newbie, not ready for the open servers" and moderated very similar to the newbie one - so most of you lot wouldn't qualify for it, sorry.

If it helps, TDM1 server is increasingly popular since we launched it - and in TDM you can at least group and get protection from the stronger players in your gang. Would that help?

[Batty]

Unless, of course, all the strong players get on 1 team, stay there and drub you 50-8 :mad:

:roll:

[Adrena1in]

I've never played a game of TDM, but I think I'd quite enjoy it. In a busy server I do tend to like to target specific players, such as someone I "know", or if there's a total newbie I'll go easy on them, (but I know it's not really right, especially in Insta where you should kill everyone).

An Insta TDM server would be awesome I think. Bit like the Insta CTF I suppose, which I'm liking more and more, (though that might be because the standard on that server tends to be a little lower than the others I find).

So yeah, I'd vote "Yes" towards a TDM server of sorts. :cooler:

[Batty]

I've never played a game of TDM, but I think I'd quite enjoy it.
So yeah, I'd vote "Yes" towards a TDM server of sorts. :cooler:



TDM1 - stock maps, FF set to 0% to start with as it's on overflow from DM6 so people might not immediately realise.

85.236.100.244:8077


See you there sometime - remember to go easy on me :v

[Flash_]

I tend to solo play, ignore my team-mates and go and find the biggest bunch of enemy I can and throw a six-pack in 'em :D

Great to be surrounded by enemy in a spammy game like UT when you can just spray bullets and be confident of frags :)