TF2 Tournament rules (suggestions)

[Anim]

Every tournament needs rules, this one so far has none :v


Ive played a few now and played a lot of matches too and feel the following may be appropriate:

Generic rules:
Players on team: 8 (usually its 6 but what do EA know :roll:)
Map: Decided by tournament structure.
Timelimit: Decided by map but NO sudden death/overtime.
No capture/win limit

I dont think i need to mention standard competition settings here (demo's etc)

Player rules:
Class limits? with 8v8 i can see 4 soldiers 3 medics and a scout being pretty hard to stop on some maps im thinking 2 or 3 per class max? /edit: Also just thought about the class groupings within the game, perhaps only 3 on a team per group; Offense, Defense, Support? Its something to consider.

Other than that i dont think TF2 really needs any player based rules imposed, if you want to rocket jump to some places go ahead etc etc...

Map rules:

ctf_2fort - Two 15 minute halves, the team with most captures after 30 minutes wins the match.

cp_dustbowl - First team to gain a 2 point advantage above 3 points total. So 2-0 will not get you a win but if you win the next round to go 3-0 you win. Also after 40 mins (subject to change, maybe 30) the team with the highest points wins.

cp_granary - 2x 20 minute halves, swap sides at half time. Most points wins.

cp_gravelpit - First team to gain a 2 point advantage above 3 points total. So 2-0 will not get you a win but if you win the next round to go 3-0 you win. Also after 40 mins (subject to change, maybe 30) the team with the highest points wins.

cp_well - 2x 20 minute halves, swap sides at half time. Most points wins.

[Anim]

Upon thinking more on the class limits, having 3 per grouping max seems like more and more of a good idea. It should cater to everyone and have a huge variety of tactics available. Offense covers: Soldier / Scout / Pyro
Defense covers: Demo / Heavy / Engineer
Support covers: Sniper / Medic / Spy

So you can easily have setups of 2 Soldier, 1 Scout, 1 of each defense, 2 medics and a sniper. (Obviously not my teams tactics but you get the idea ;))

[Dentist]

Personally i feel having class limits is a bad idea, particually when no other competitions i have seen nor high level play i've seen uses them, and i'm personally against any form of artificially limiting strategic options open to players.

[Anim]

Quite a few tournaments are using class limits actually, at first i hated the idea but after playing around with a few setups massive amounts of soldiers with medics support can rarely be beaten.

[Omnituens]

8 man scout rush ftw.

[liv3d]

These are the CEVO rules for 6v6:


The class restrictions are now as follows:

* 2 Soldiers
* 2 Snipers
* 2 Scouts
* 2 Pyros
* 1 Medic
* 1 Heavy
* 1 Spy
* 1 Demoman
* 1 Engineer


Chances are they are going to be similar to them, maybe 1 or 2 tweaks.

Edit: These are NOT final. We will edit these, please make suggestions below.

[Anim]

3 from this group, Offense: Soldier / Scout / Pyro
3 from this group, Defense: Demo / Heavy / Engineer
3 from this group, Support: Sniper / Medic / Spy

i really cant find a fault with this setup as opposed to picking 1's and 2's out of a hat assigning them randomly to each class which is what cevo did. I mean really, 2 snipers?

[TomM]

CEVo was for 6v6 tho? right? :D

[liv3d]

Anim: That works out at 1 player per class...

TomM: yes, Cevo is 6v6, which is why its only going to be a base for us.

[Anim]

Yes you could use 1 player per class if you wanted to, but you could also have 3 soldiers if you wanted to, that would just mean less scouts (none to be precise).

Just finished playing granary where a team of 2 scouts, 2 or 3 soldiers and 1 or 2 medics absolutely dominates. You'd be hard pressed to find anything to beat it unless you play the same classes on the opposite team.

[CyberDrac]

The one thing that I have always admired about TF2 is the ability to counter any class imbalance, any imbalance is usually countered in the first re-spawn. Personally I feel that there shouldn't be any restrictions on classes, a good team will adapt, and THAT is the aspect of TF2 I absolutely adore, and THAT is why every game or match that I have played in as been radically different. I would hate for such a flexible game to become so formulaic this early on in it's career, in fact I would even go as so far as to say that class restrictions might ultimately ruin it. The only time where once class might dominate is in a CTF where you have a low cap limit and the other team may not have time to turn it around and adapt, but since you aren't operating that way I don't feel that there is a need.

CD

[liv3d]

While I realise that class restrictions my in some cases ruin a game, I also don't want to be the one who gets moaned at because on cp_well the red team where doing an 8 man scout rush, and the blu team tried to sit on the last cap point with 8 heavys...

But seriously though, we want to make teams fair for everyone playing :)

[CyberDrac]

Agreed, but what that is doing isn't creating fairness, it is restricting legitimate team tactics and game play. As I said before, class balance is quickly achieved through natural attrition and adapting, just ensure that there is sufficient time for that to take effect and then it boils down to team and individual skill. As far as I can tell this should provide the fairness you are looking for.

CD

[Aardvark]

The problem is that in certain scenarios, there IS no counter setup. Sure the 8 heavy team won't be too hot on the offensive, but if all they have to do is hold out for a couple of minutes you're going to have a hard team unseating them...

[Anim]

CyberDrac, i hate to sound elitist but how many TF2 matches have you participated in? On CP maps theres no need for a defensive class as the offensive ones have it all, well the soldiers have it all anyway. It will make it pretty tedious for spectators as its mostly rocket spam across the middle points, whoever wins the initial spam often wins the round.

[CyberDrac]

I'm sorry that in the week since I have taken up a position in a clan, and played two clan matches, of which one was a CP level, that I have not experienced what you describe. In the CP map we played a solid support and defence nullified an offensive opposition quite easily and with that strategy we made solid advances and won through the match adapting our strategy as the opposition changed theirs.

In the 30 hours I have accumulated on publics (not much by some standards) I have seen the same attempts at a massive assault put to shame by a solid defence, and so I feel that my point of view holds true.

Restricting classes is something which the original game doesn't need, it balances out perfectly well if your team works well together and has strategies in place to cope, why compensate for the lowest common denominator just so that disorganised teams have a better chance. When was the last time you saw a football team being told that in a given tournament they must play 4-4-2 and that any other formation or tactic will be restricted?

CD

[spraduke]

There is no defense or counter to a 4 soldier ubered rush (4x soldier + 4 x medics + 4x ubers ;)). You need class limits to prevent this kind of lack of variety. You want the game to be tactically diverse but lets face it forcing people to use all the roles will make it much more tactically variable.

The PCW's we have played were with a limit of 2 of any class and it was still very tense and very diverse. 1 minute you might face down 2 uber heavys or then have to deal with a spy in your base and demoman stickys.

I would prefer that over scout rushes and soldier rocket spam any day of the week.

[Towneh]

or over... http://www.towneh.net/albums/tf2/pyrofury.sized.jpg

[Anim]

Theres no point in the game that you can defend vs half of the enemy team as soldiers ubered. Even without crits that break your defense (and the game) its still enough to reduce your numbers severely.

By your theories CD, those teams that have the sense to play fully uber'd soldiers should get the win every time vs those willing to try other methods. If there was no uber the game would be a different story.

[maximumweasel]

There is no defense or counter to a 4 soldier ubered rush (4x soldier + 4 x medics + 4x ubers ;)).



What about 4 soliders ubered defence?
Hypothetically of course.

But if that's a given tactic then the same would be the given defence surely.

[Anim]

It would depend on the map, a lot of the cp maps have differentiated respawn timers so the attacking team will generally win as they can get back quicker. The main problem is as a defending team you have to compensate for a variation of potential setups attacking you, you could play with the medics and soldiers yourself but if the opposing team switches to a variety when attacking you get screwed by some other classes.

For maps like well and granary though it just deteriorates to rocket spam, not sure if thats where people want to see the game going.

[Khazul]

Im not sure that any general class limit is workable in a soley positive way given the variation in maps, playing styles of teams and individuals etc. Some maps suit very different class mixes and the best teams will be those with the most adaptable and cooperative players, Also some players are extremely good at odd combinations of clas and role (defensive scout for eg).

I understand there are several combos that are a complete pain to deal with, but impossible to balance? Im not so sure I would say impossible if the map times are appropriate as well - balance needs to be looked at in the context of each map type I think. Perhaps the balance is that lameness on both side should result in a stalemate.

"The road to hell is paved with good intensions..."

[Anim]

The point is to set it up so that on the maps where variation is key you dont limit teams at all, but on some maps where having most players as 1 or 2 classes then it breaks the flow of things.

On maps such as 2fort or dustbowl you wont want pure soldiers/medics when defending, but attacking dustbowl a group of 3/4 soldiers with 3/4 uber medics you cant do much to stop them if they do it right. My clan is coming up with new ways to counter this but none are reliable even against teams not as experienced/skilled.

[Khazul]

... if they do it right.

And thats the key - if they can execute something like that perfectly and win because of it - well tough. Upto you to come up with something similar to make sure you at least dont loose at least.

TBH - I see the Uber and critical hit as counter to competitive play anyway - a match won or lost seems more likely to be done when someone got that critical hit, or uber was used. Both to me seem like nasty hacks introduced by valve to make noobs feel better than they are, so they cant get owned all the time as in fact they should be against a better player.

[Anim]

Thats pretty much it, people win by luck now. 2 top teams will rarely screw up a soldier medic uber rush and even if they do .... they get another 10-15mins on dustbowl to charge it up again. That time they do it right they win :(

[Omnituens]

all valve need to do is add sv_allowuber and sv_allowcrit

then it can be changed at server owner's liking.

[Anim]

ubers are fine, its the crits that bother me and a cvar would be awesome but you should see the commotion it caused on the tf2 forums. So many whiney public players who declared that all noobs should get free kills on skilled players in matches. Thats not including the ones that think public games are more skillful than matches because you need to work with people you dont know :\ god i hate people in general.

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

Just to add my penniesworth! Please don't blast me out of the water on this one though....

Player rules:
Class limits? with 8v8 i can see 4 soldiers 3 medics and a scout being pretty hard to stop on some maps im thinking 2 or 3 per class max? /edit: Also just thought about the class groupings within the game, perhaps only 3 on a team per group; Offense, Defense, Support? Its something to consider.
Other than that i dont think TF2 really needs any player based rules imposed, if you want to rocket jump to some places go ahead etc etc...

I think class limiting is a bad idea. Yes you are right Scout rushing Soldier+Medic combinations are difficult so on an so forth BUT surely the whole point in starting a TF2 clan would be that you play and play as a team to combat these "impossible" tactics so that eventually you become the best and can beat "most" clans.

By limiting classes you are taking away a main piece of the game...."if it ain't broke don't fix it?". For tournament purposes i think it should be left as per normal (public) it is a game after all and not RL the game was made this way to have fun not to be eddited or restricted to "make things fairer" or such like. In essence you are removing the challenge.

Generic rules:
Players on team: 8 (usually its 6 but what do EA know )
Map: Decided by tournament structure.
Timelimit: Decided by map but NO sudden death/overtime.
No capture/win limit


Ok players on team 8. Yes good idea obviously there is room for expansion right? Maybe a bit higher for a different section of the tournament? After all it is called TEAM fortress ;)

Map decided on tournament structure. Agreed.

Timelimit. Yes another good idea or these matches could run for weeks HEE HEE. BUT let me point out to you again that removing sudden death and overtime you deny the game a certain part of it's life. It was made with these things to complete the game and without them it's just not TF2. Overtime is a fantastic idea ESPECIALLY for tournaments....sudden death...what better way to find out who the actual winner is ? Ok so STALEMATE? is that the problem? Well a quick and easy way to get arounf that is by taking who had the higher score before the sudden death happened. And if it really comes to the fact that they both had the same ammount of points...then it's down to who had the most points captured before it became sudden death.

Map rules:
ctf_2fort - Two 15 minute halves, the team with most captures after 30 minutes wins the match.
cp_dustbowl - First team to gain a 2 point advantage above 3 points total. So 2-0 will not get you a win but if you win the next round to go 3-0 you win. Also after 40 mins (subject to change, maybe 30) the team with the highest points wins.
cp_granary - 2x 20 minute halves, swap sides at half time. Most points wins.
cp_gravelpit - First team to gain a 2 point advantage above 3 points total. So 2-0 will not get you a win but if you win the next round to go 3-0 you win. Also after 40 mins (subject to change, maybe 30) the team with the highest points wins.
cp_well - 2x 20 minute halves, swap sides at half time. Most points wins.

No problem with these at all. Obviously we all need time restrictions or as i said bfore it would go on for weeks :)

Please don't take it as a rant or such like. This is mearly my personal opinion on what you have stated.

[Anim]

Im sure if you really are the TF2 admin for multiplay you'd know its down to 6v6 now ? :cooler: Pretty much every other tournament is playing 6v6 and it was voted as 6 preferred in the poll recently. You know a team of 6 is still a team ;)


Sudden death and overtime have no part to play in tournaments, if you cant beat them in the set time then you cant beat them, its that simple.

Class limits, with crits as they are in the game *sigh* you wont always be able to avoid a crit rocket from an uber'd soldier, nevermind when theres 3 of them. At this point the game breaks because there is no need to play anything else, you cant die, you have splash damage, you have a LOT of damage. On attack/defend half the defending team will be dead by the time uber runs out, at which point its 6v3 so gg :\ If you can think of a way to defend against 3 uber'd soldiers please englighten me ;)

Before anyone tries to make a snide comment about killing medics before they can charge uber, you can charge from the safety of your own spawn if you want to so that point is invalid already.

The time limits arent there because a match will go on forever, they are there because not all maps are symmetical so in the interest of fairness both teams play both sides.

[Boffykins]

Badger is one of the Multiplay Online admins. He's a swashbuckling admin that sweeps away bad guys from our public servers :)

[Lucifa]

Stupid question, but can you just avoid them when they uber? You can't cap points when ubered so with maybe good planning, hang around the corner or in spawn (I guess only works on dustbowl part 3) then ambush them as it runs out.
At that point it really is 6v3 - 6 defending players all doing damage vs only 3 players doing damage, since the medics won't be shooting.
Only takes 3 stickys to blow up a soldier and his friend.

Or layer the cp with stickies beforehand, I realise they can be shot away, but it's not easy or an exact science and well it's great if they spend all their uber time trying to shoot stickies away.

Just a thought, I don't play clan matches so it may not be feasible.

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

Badger is one of the Multiplay Online admins. He's a swashbuckling admin that sweeps away bad guys from our public servers


Hee hee yes i remove those annoying e-thugs from our servers so that the servers may live another day! And i may just add the TF2 admin team are doing pretty well at populating and clearing the muck.....It's a pleasure working in such a well communicative and balanced admin team :)


Im sure if you really are the TF2 admin for multiplay you'd know its down to 6v6 now ? Pretty much every other tournament is playing 6v6 and it was voted as 6 preferred in the poll recently. You know a team of 6 is still a team


Sudden death and overtime have no part to play in tournaments, if you cant beat them in the set time then you cant beat them, its that simple.

Class limits, with crits as they are in the game *sigh* you wont always be able to avoid a crit rocket from an uber'd soldier, nevermind when theres 3 of them. At this point the game breaks because there is no need to play anything else, you cant die, you have splash damage, you have a LOT of damage. On attack/defend half the defending team will be dead by the time uber runs out, at which point its 6v3 so gg :\ If you can think of a way to defend against 3 uber'd soldiers please englighten me

Before anyone tries to make a snide comment about killing medics before they can charge uber, you can charge from the safety of your own spawn if you want to so that point is invalid already.

The time limits arent there because a match will go on forever, they are there because not all maps are symmetical so in the interest of fairness both teams play both sides.


As Boffbowsh stated i am indeed a TF2 Admin but i must add i am relatively new to the multiplay scene but also hasent to add i am not new to the admining scene :P

As i am new to the MPUK scene i am not up to scratch with all the finer details although i am trying to get there and think i am not doing to badly at the moment ;)

6v6 - Yes fine i agree and never disagreed in my previous post....was just adding that a possibility for the max (11v11) would also be good to have as an additional section in the matching? Say...hmm an alternate division in the league? Meh...just an idea???

Sudden death..why does it not? Surely a little bit of humiliation makes for a bit of motivation in a team...and also you don't win a match on the number of kills you have ;)

Overtime...as i stated it's just my small opinion in a some what larger community but as it is part of the game surely it can be implimented....i mean what better way to get a winback ;)

Class limits....right well crits..part of the game again ;) either way crit rockets are easy to avoid i do it even in sudden death when i can't shoot back :O

Beating 3 ubered soldiers? Pfffft EASY as eating PIE! 1 sentry 1 demo and a spy....i mean cmon this is all common sense. If you can truley work as a team then you can accomplish these small pain in the behind problems! I am quite happy to show you one day.....i will pick a team and we can play and we will even let you get unered and let you get close to the control point?

Charge from saety of own spawn.....granted...but have you ever had it when on the opening control points of Dustbowl loads of ubered Soldiers, Demomen and such like come running out..?? Easy You have a sniper sitting back and by the time they run up the middle side or (other side) the uber runs out and wollop headshot on the medic and plop go's the main shooter.

Timelimits? Yes i see your point...never disagreed though :P

[Anim]

You realise we're talking about a tournament here with people that can aim in a competitive environment? Feel free to join in with liv3d playing against us. Im really struggling to see how a sentry (dead in 1 second from 3 soldiers) a demo (pipes shot away with just 1 soldier) and a spy (oh look its someone not ubered, kill him) will stop it? These ideas of yours work on publics ....... TF2 is refined as a public game but with all its frills it works terribly in competitive play. You dont lose in a team game, but then the game feels sorry for you so gives you another 5 minutes to get that last objective, its just stupid and wrong.

If you can find me a sniper that can kill 6 people in under 4 seconds whilst being rocketed (thats not even how long it would take to cap a point with 5 people) then fair enough you have a safe bet with defending dustbowl. Good luck with that one.

Lucifa, unfortunately with the way TF2 maps are designed cap points are relatively small for the most part, 1 rocket will easily knock away stickies to the point that they are useless. A good team will cancel an uber to have 2 people on the point with 4 uber'd players still which will kill any resistance, during the next 4-5 seconds the cap will be mostly done, if not you still have at least 4 people on the point which means its barely a second to cap.

Also with regards to avoiding a soldier, dont forget we rocket/pipe jump all over the place except the uber'd ones dont take any damage from it. Simply avoiding a player isnt as easy as it might sound :(

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

I get the feeling we are playing different games but it's not an argument or a debate it's mearly throwing some ideas about :)

I will just pick some points......SORRY!

Also with regards to avoiding a soldier, dont forget we rocket/pipe jump all over the place except the uber'd ones dont take any damage from it. Simply avoiding a player isnt as easy as it might sound


Ubered soldiers granted....can't kill em whilst rocketing or on the ground BUT the majority of the time when they rocket the medic loses track of them and the uber get's cut off...not always but mostly...in my experiance anyways. When they land....err ouch low health POW POW dead.

Not ubered lose health on rocket jump OUCH when land POW POW dead.


Exageration sniper killing me thinks...i guess i worded it wrong...bearing in mind you have an additional 5 other people on your team.....get my point?

Obviously i play on the Multiplay servers but i play on clanned multiplay servers too and have had muck about scrims before. I know how to aim in a competitive environment. It's the same as aiming in an un competitive environment right? Either way i don't see the point there...

As for the point about Sentry, Spy and Demo...well it takes longer than 1 second to kill the SG....longer than 1 second to blow away the stickies.....longer than 1 second OH hang on! the ubers run out! hmmm me thinks peoples is dead now ja???

On the point of the game feeling sorry for you e.t.c? Do you play public?

Anyhoo please note this is not a rant or rave and are my own personal thoughts about the game. No direct criticism intended.

[liv3d]

Due to the way Sudden Death / Overtime works, I'm not likely to include them in the tourny.
I have a copy of the CEVO configs, and after 30 mins the map changes. No SD, no Overtime. So I will look at editing them for i32, and trying to get something that works.

As to the debate about class limits, I'll put a vote up for you in a min, and you can decide the (wo)manly way & vote on it.

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

Liv3d,
Just wanted to point out that this is just a little chat about certain points we are both trying to make. In no way am i trying to get things "changed" as the way they are for i32 or such like i just like to discuss what i think about this particular section of the TF2 community :)

[liv3d]

As for the point about Sentry, Spy and Demo...well it takes longer than 1 second to kill the SG....longer than 1 second to blow away the stickies.....longer than 1 second OH hang on! the ubers run out! hmmm me thinks peoples is dead now ja???


Building level 3 SG can't be done in the 30s setup, nor can it be done near a CP else it will be dead in 2s flat.


Edit: @post above: This is more about i32 than public servers.

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

Building level 3 SG can't be done in the 30s setup, nor can it be done near a CP else it will be dead in 2s flat.


Oooo now there is a challenge!!!!

I have built a Lvl 3 SG in 30 second setup EASY!

Yes granted anywhere near the CP (within a couple of metres *game wise*) is a bad idea but i suppose it depends on what map you are refering too....

[Anim]

I do try to play as many matches as possible and avoid publics, it really is a completely different game. Publics are just running around killing everything you see mindlessly :\

Sniper thing: The point is you WONT have 5 other people with you, a fair few will be dead already.

Rockets: A good medic (at least the ones i play with) have no trouble at all following a soldier rocketing around unless they go too far, but a good soldier wont go too far. They work ... as a team! *shocker* ;)

As for the sentry thing, 3-4 rockets WILL kill a turret instantly, the 1 second was merely the flight time, by which time one of them will have turned and fired another at the pipes. Dont forget we're only a second and a half in to the uber here, stickes dont move so you dont need to watch if your rocket hit them or not. Theres still a lot of time to kill everyone else.

As for the aiming thing, im simply trying to say that in matches against good clans the accuracy of each player is MUCH higher than that of a general public game, its a whole different level.

That said i come from pretty much a purely competitive background with regards to FPS games, i'd just hate to see this one go down flaming due to some easily fixed issues.

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

I suppose at the end of the day it falls down to self preferance. Also at the end of the day the majority decide.

I totaly understand what you are saying with all your comments but i guess my views on the game are totaly different to yours that's why our opinions clash so much :P

i32 will be fun (although sadly i can't go this year :( ) and i am sure either way the tournament is set out everyone will still have fun :)

[Anim]

Wow, someone that doesnt resort to flaming me for having a different opinion on the game, impressive.

Most people seem to not realise that for some of us "fun" is playing competitively, not just running around shooting rainbows from our guns and spewing kittens. Im not joking either, some people really must see that as TF2, i'd hate to see it through their eyes :(

Unfortunately with the "majority decision" side of things, players who feel strongly about tf2 publics etc will always stick their oar in to give their opinion. Problem is it doesnt affect them at all but they will still be heard :\ as with any fps, the casual gamers will always outnumber those in the competition so you may not always get an accurate view of how things should be handled.

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

Heh as i said i am not one to flame OR argue i just like to express my opinions and views on certain aspects of things ;)

Ye as i said people play all different types of games in all different types of ways. It's modern day gaming. Long gone are the days when you used to go into school and go OMG MAN I COMPLETED STREETFIGHTER WHAT WAS YOUR SCORE!?? It's more like so i killed this guy the other night and i used this tactic and did this and that and this......you get my point....gaming is evolving it's not like there is one set goal in a new game release these days there are many therefore there are many many more different ways of playing it and that's where the arguments and problems start.

Your right the public side of online games will always outnumber the competitive side which is a shame but meh without it it wouldn't be competitive ;)

[Beaknuke]

Hi, i haven't read all the posts as I see a bit a flaming... we got like 10days till the event, would appreciate some agreements so we can practice with the configs, a cut off day would be good.

[Towneh]

If it helps, this is what we were using recently for a match config, following on from the ESL config specifications.

http://alice.poddle.net/~towneh/source/match.cfg

[βДĐĜĘŘ©]

There was no flaming in this thread.

Me and Anim just liked to debate our own views in this thread which is much suited to it.

Either way we agreed to disagree ;)