Gamers broadband i think not!

[Embassy]

Hi,

I have just been reading you broadband services with a smile on my face. It is sold as “gamers Broadband” but as im sure we both know since it uses a phone line it is not true broadband

£29.99 is a lot of money for a service which any true gamer will know is to be fair crap telewest or Ntl is the only choice for the pro gamer and there 10Mb service is just £35.00 a month. Just £5.01 more per month
There is also absolutely no download limit what so ever.

I also notice you say

“We don't mess with your gaming...”
but on the next page it says “we reduce your connection speed for the rest of that month to 256kbps. Still more than enough for gaming”

if that’s not messing with your gaming I don’t know what is, to be honest the idea that 256Kbps is fast enoth for gaming is an insult. What are you playing duke nukem 3D ?


also you don’t actually say anywhere what the speed of the gaming service is so I can only assume it’s the max for DSL 8mbps depending on your distance from the exchange

in conclusion you might want to re think the wording of this as to not insult the true gamers out there with your lies


sad to say its another example of money hungry idiots trying to con not so bright individuals with a below standard service

[Rich]

ROFL, Yeah I agree, it's whack.

[Cabe]

Any true gamer knows its not bandwidth its latency.

Last time I checked the most bandwisth a game used per second was 6k, and that was for WoW. Besides you only get rate limited down to 265k if you break your download cap, this is to protect the other gamers on DSL from suffering because of your excessive network useage.

NEXT!

[Shazz]

Cabe 1 - n00b User 0

[Embassy]

"Any true gamer knows its not bandwidth its latency."

that may be true but that dose not change the fact that ADSL is crap and everyone knows it, i work for BT internet so i know just how **** it is. it dose not matter what provider you go with they all use Bt`s lines anyway.

10Meg Ftw its the fastest commercial connection in the Uk and the best for good reason. dropogg.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/speed.JPG

i see from other posts that this service will be closing soon anyway, predictable and inevitable.

Just sad that the guys from multiplay decided to cash in on this.

in the end of the day the only true "gamers broadband" available in the UK is from NTL Telewest

[Elbonio]

Hi,

I have just been reading you broadband services with a smile on my face. It is sold as “gamers Broadband” but as im sure we both know since it uses a phone line it is not true broadband


broadband

adjective
1. of or relating to or being a communications network in which the bandwidth can be divided and shared by multiple simultaneous signals

ADSL

Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line

ADSL uses standard telephone lines to transmit upstream and downstream data on a digital frequency, which sets these datastreams apart from the analog signals telephones and fax machines use. Because the ADSL signal is operating on a different frequency, the telephone can be used normally, even when surfing the Web with ADSL service.




£29.99 is a lot of money for a service which any true gamer will know is to be fair crap

You've tried it have you?

telewest or Ntl is the only choice for the pro gamer and there 10Mb service is just £35.00 a month. Just £5.01 more per month
There is also absolutely no download limit what so ever.

You are making the mistake of comparing a service aimed at high-downloaders to a service aimed at gamers. Gamers != downloaders by default and you do not need high amounts of bandwidth for games. You need low latency which is what we offer.

to be honest the idea that 256Kbps is fast enoth for gaming is an insult. What are you playing duke nukem 3D ?

Clearly showing you know nothing about what you're talking about.

Were you the largest Gaming Service Provider in Europe and didn't tell us by any chance? Unless you were then I think we might know a little bit more about this than you do. Stay in your depth.


also you don’t actually say anywhere what the speed of the gaming service is so I can only assume it’s the max for DSL 8mbps depending on your distance from the exchange

http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/crap/proof_for_an_idiot.jpg

Further proof that you should be ignored.


in conclusion you might want to re think the wording of this as to not insult the true gamers out there with your lies sad to say its another example of money hungry idiots trying to con not so bright individuals with a below standard service


In conclusion you might want to think before posting slanderous comments on a message board and try and ask yourself if making yourself look like more of an idiot is really what you need in life right now?

[pen]

What a load of toss embasy get your facts straight before spouting off in the future.

Im with NTL but only because i refuse to pay £10 for a landline i would never use.

[Knight ArmagoN]

if you could ping the server on the page.....

[K]

Hi,
I have just been reading you broadband services with a smile on my face. It is sold as “gamers Broadband” but as im sure we both know since it uses a phone line it is not true broadband


There are two types of Broadband in the UK: Cable and DSL, DSL uses your phone line but there's no reason why this prevents it being Broadband.

£29.99 is a lot of money for a service which any true gamer will know is to be fair crap telewest or Ntl is the only choice for the pro gamer and there 10Mb service is just £35.00 a month. Just £5.01 more per month


Bandwidth has nothing to do with quality gaming! Quality gaming is all about low latency and consistent ping. Multiplay DSL brings you both of those by utilising our state of the art network which was designed from the ground up for gaming. Mass market providers such as NTL don't care if your ping to server XYZ is 400ms if you can see it, its not a problem. Multiplay on the other had will always look to ensure you get the best ping possibly by only using quality Tier 1 transit providers and peering.

Not to mention with any other provider your not plugged direct into the network of the largest GSP hence the best possible connection to all those servers.


There is also absolutely no download limit what so ever.

They don't specify a limit but they also don't look to ensure at every step your latency ( ping ) is suitable for gaming, hence its NOT a gaming oriented service where as ours is. We know from experience that NTL is going through a problematic time with their network ATM as they finalise their merger with BY and this is causing ping issues.


I also notice you say

“We don't mess with your gaming...”
but on the next page it says “we reduce your connection speed for the rest of that month to 256kbps. Still more than enough for gaming”

if that’s not messing with your gaming I don’t know what is, to be honest the idea that 256Kbps is fast enoth for gaming is an insult. What are you playing duke nukem 3D ?


Sorry but you clearly don't know much about gaming protocols. You could be connected to the most bandwidth intensive game 24/7 for the entire month and still not get anywhere near our caps. But even if you did hit your cap due to downloading you could still continue to game unhindered as 256Kbps IS plenty of bandwidth for gaming, if you believe it isnt I'm afraid you have been seriously miss-informed.



also you don’t actually say anywhere what the speed of the gaming service is so I can only assume it’s the max for DSL 8mbps depending on your distance from the exchange

The max speed for the gaming service is 2Mb as we don't support DSL Max for two reasons:
* Its not financially viable given BT's current Central pipe costs.
* Its far from suitable for gaming due to increased latency and retraining.


in conclusion you might want to re think the wording of this as to not insult the true gamers out there with your lies
sad to say its another example of money hungry idiots trying to con not so bright individuals with a below standard service

The real conclusion is that your have been very much miss-informed about the requirements for gaming and what makes a good gaming service from a networking perspective. I hope the details above set the record straight for you in this respect so you can make a proper informed decision of what makes a Broadband provider suitable for gaming.

[GeeDee]

I have just been reading you broadband services with a smile on my face. It is sold as “gamers Broadband” but as im sure we both know since it uses a phone line it is not true broadband

I'm sorry; but what on earth is that supposed to mean? ADSL is delivered over PSTN phone lines yes; how does that make it 'not true broadband'? The frequencies used to deliver ADSL and voice traffic are different; so the fact they both travel down the same copper pair is irrelevant. Perhaps you should look up the definition of broadband yourself.

£29.99 is a lot of money for a service which any true gamer will know is to be fair crap telewest or Ntl is the only choice for the pro gamer and there 10Mb service is just £35.00 a month. Just £5.01 more per month
There is also absolutely no download limit what so ever.

You work for a cableco or something? Cable services are contended in much the same way as xDSL; although with cable contention is usually more service affecting than with xDSL services - when you live on a road full of students for example i'm sure cable users will know what can happen to the service. :)

I also notice you say

“We don't mess with your gaming...”
but on the next page it says “we reduce your connection speed for the rest of that month to 256kbps. Still more than enough for gaming”

if that’s not messing with your gaming I don’t know what is, to be honest the idea that 256Kbps is fast enoth for gaming is an insult. What are you playing duke nukem 3D ?

As Europes biggest gaming service provider, i'd say we have a pretty good idea of the bandwidth demands of playing online games - probably more than you do. Why don't you try graphing your bandwidth usage whilst playing an online game of your choice and let us know the results?

Latency is the major factor when gaming online - the response time between you and the server. Online gaming demands low latency / low bandwidth - lots and lots of small packets of data. Many ISPs these days are implementing very heavy handed QoS on their networks; plus all manner of proxies - and their routes are often very inefficient against what they could be - which increases latency (NTL certainly proxy an awful lot of stuff - and their LINX port has been at full whack for some time now; giving many NTL customers trying to game online truly terrible performance). MultiplayDSL uses a network built for low latency and we peer at many major exchange points. We do after all, host thousands of games servers on our network - you get the same great performance from the DSL service - hence 'We don't mess with your connection'.

also you don’t actually say anywhere what the speed of the gaming service is so I can only assume it’s the max for DSL 8mbps depending on your distance from the exchange

Maybe you should read this (http://www.multiplaydsl.net/play/packages.php) page.

in conclusion you might want to re think the wording of this as to not insult the true gamers out there with your lies


sad to say its another example of money hungry idiots trying to con not so bright individuals with a below standard service

I'd say it was more a case of no-clue mindless ranting by yourself; but I look forward to your response nevertheless. As the organisers of the UKs largest LAN events and a GSP regularly seeing over 10,000 simultaneous gamers on our online services - i'd like to think we know a little bit about our own products. We do try and give gamers what they want as i'm sure many of our customers can attest. :)

Regards,
Giles
Multiplay

[Elbonio]

Of course the real pain that can be found here is that we are having to define what Broadband is and what the difference between bandwidth and latency is to someone who works for BT Internet.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions from that.

[Zenith]

Having been on Multiplay DSL in the past, I found it to be a very good product at a good price. The speed, latency, peering and support are all top notch. The *only* fly in my ointment was being limited to 2Mbit when my line is capable of the full speed ASDL Max. For gamers after good connections with really low latency, there aren't many ISPs that can beat Multiplay.


(Can I have my £10 now GeeDee? :))

[Embassy]

its amusing to see so many multiplay employees jumping to the defense of there own service, when this service closes it will be plain for all to see just how "good" this service is.

I wonder how many of the multiplay staff use and pay for this service and i dont mean the ones who get it free from work, but choose to spend there hard eard cash on it

i work for BT so i know how **** all adsl services are there is no getting around the fact that over 50% of BT`s network uses 30 year old copper wires.

the point of this post was more to say adsl in general is crap and cable is by far better. if you can supply proof that in fact your service is faster and more reliable than Cable fair enoth but you sell a service as being for gamers, when other ISP`s out there who don't offer there service as specifically for gamers is blatantly faster.

I do know the difference between bandwidth and latency and of course what broadband is just in my opinion Adsl dose not offer the speed and reliability needed in todays market.

2Mb for £29.99 seems rather expensive and makes me wonder what profit you make on this

[K]

"Any true gamer knows its not bandwidth its latency."

that may be true but that dose not change the fact that ADSL is crap and everyone knows it, i work for BT internet so i know just how **** it is. it dose not matter what provider you go with they all use Bt`s lines anyway.

I hope they don't let you near the network as you have show a distinct lack of knowledge in this area.


10Meg Ftw its the fastest commercial connection in the Uk and the best for good reason. dropogg.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/speed.JPG


Yet again another invalid statement 24Mb is currently the fastest Broadband solution and Ooo guess what its DSL based :P


i see from other posts that this service will be closing soon anyway, predictable and inevitable.

Just sad that the guys from multiplay decided to cash in on this.


No idea where you got this info from.


in the end of the day the only true "gamers broadband" available in the UK is from NTL Telewest

Oh dear even when given the facts you still don't seem to be able to grasp the concepts, shame.

[Shazz]

i work for BT so i know how **** all adsl services are there is no getting around the fact that over 50% of BT`s network uses 30 year old copper wires.

how's Bangalore this week then? seeing as 3/4 of BT's employee's work in india now... And seeing as you don't seem to have any intellect what so ever... Put two and two together and you get? :p:

[K]

the point of this post was more to say adsl in general is crap and cable is by far better. if you can supply proof that in fact your service is faster and more reliable than Cable fair enoth but you sell a service as being for gamers, when other ISP`s out there who don't offer there service as specifically for gamers is blatantly faster.

Maybe you will understand this:

FASTER != BETTER FOR GAMERS

[*Tsunami*]

Embassy is just a troll, he is under the delusion that everybody in the UK can get Cable. Let's hope he has to move to one of the many area's in the Uk where the only option is ADSL (or even better there is no broadband).

[TheDon]

but you sell a service as being for gamers, when other ISP`s out there who don't offer there service as specifically for gamers is blatantly faster.

Define "faster". If you want "faster" to be you'll download x amount of data sooner, then yes. If you want "faster" to be the lowest ping times, as in you get your responses faster, then no.

You're completely missing the point that bandwidth is not the be all and end all of the internet. You can have 100mb, but if it's going via khazakstan then you're not going to be using it for gaming.

The FACT of the matter is that an ISP built from the group up with gaming in mind, with peering based around the lowest latency routes is FAR superior to a standard isp that doesn't care about routing as long as it gets there.

I'll give you an example, I'm on Blueyonder (who are apparantly a far better gaming ISP according to you right?) A few weeks back my ping in WoW skyrocketed to over 1k, I couldn't do anything without seconds of delay, and got constant disconnects. Why? Because for some reason they'd decided to route the traffic via America. To get to a datahouse in Frankfurt their network was routing me via new york and washington. When I phoned them up about it they said there was nothing they could do about it. Clearly that's FAR superior to the lowest latency routes that a gamer centric ISP would employ.

Now, I'm not saying that Multiplay DSL is the best choice for gamers, I've never used it, or any other DSL for that matter, what I'm saying is that in my opinion (based on my experience with networking, which is probably alot more than your BT helpdesk experience) the idea of focusing on low ping routing rather than raw bandwidth is a sound one, and WILL provide far better gaming results.

Now you'll probably ignore this post and just say blah blah multiplay employees blah blah I work for BT blah blah, but you're just proving you're amazingly misinformed, seeing as most the people replying, and laughing, at this thread are not multiplay employees, but just people with one hell of alot more of an idea of how networking works.

[JeRkY]

I have both Multiplay DSL and NTL cable (at 2 different addresses.) Sure NTL hands down beats my multiplay connection for downloading. with virtually non existant caps. But the number of times ive had issues with packet loss and lag ingame over the NTL connection is just insaine. when NTL is good, its fine, when its not it leads to weeks of fingers crossed hoping the connection calms down again.

My multiplay dsl however "just works" i get great pings , virtually zero packet loss and MUCH MUCH better support on the odd times ive needed it in the past. (im on the cheapo 10gig cap per month too, and ive not yet been limited to 256k despite the odd "large game patch" downloads)

And the service isnt stopping, the ADSL max service was discontinued for reasons explained previously in this thread. But my MPDSL connection is very much alive and kicking.

So for me cable has its plus sides, but dsl (via multiplay) is my gamming connection for the simple reason that it outperforms my ntl connection in all areas required to make a gamer happy.

[Xilly]

Are you sure you work for BT and not NTL / Telewest?

If you don't want to use this ISP then don't, nobody is forcing you to. Take your misinformed opinions and lies back to whatever ISP you actually do work for and carry on feeding your customers duff information.

[Jez_Gafys]

I think a perfect line for gamers with more then enough would be a 512k SDSL its the upload that's always the bottle neck.

And as cabe says its latency, I have NTL cable more than fast enough download speeds, playing Quake3 on my wireless which effects the latency just proves it.

[Elbonio]

Where Embassy is going wrong here is he's confusing 10MB as being "faster" when reaslly its only faster at DOWNLOADING BIGGER FILES.


Let me explain to you embassy using Gods creatures that you would probably find at Chester Zoo and the racetrack respectively.


http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/crap/moron/1.jpg


http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/crap/moron/2.jpg


http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/crap/moron/3.jpg


As gamers we really only care about LITTLE FOOD. The dog is better for little food.

Does this make it clearer?

[Shazz]

lol

[Cabe]

I think it needed a pirate.

[Xilly]

I was going to suggest it required a ninja, but I imagine hes there, just moving at such a speed that the human eye can't see him.

That or hes lurking behind the hippo.

[Pingman]

Surely if they were both getting the food at the same time the hippo would just kill the greyhound to get the food?

Nice diagram, i like it.

I can safely say that after moving from 2mb ADSL to 8MB ADSL MAX, Bandwith really isn't everything. I mean, sure you need some, but it really is all about the routing. I should of stayed with Pipex :|

[rick_2k]

Wow what a random troll post...

"not to insult true gamers???? you are insulting us mate by saying that crap.

Multiplays service... infact any ADSL service is just as capable for GAMING as cable. As was said gaming uses next to nothing bandwith. If you want big Download caps go elsewere simple as..

[Cabe]

Pingman -- check to see if your provider has put you on fast path or interleaved mode (hint you want fast path :) )

[jugster]

OMG....E-Drama... - Popcorn anyone....

/me watches Embassy crash and burn... Can multiplay please talk to Blizzard about networks... ;)

Keep up the good work Wizzo and Chips... you always getmy vote.. Even though im with Telewest... ;) But then I play WOW.. ;)

/Digs into popcorn.

[Embassy]

i like the diagram :) but i understand your argument and for the record i have a BSc:Hons in computer science so i do know my stuff i just choose to ignore it as i said before in my experience you cannot compare adsl to cable.

But having said that im going to take out your service for a month and compare it to telewest and then we shall see who is better watch this space i will post the conclusions of which here.

[ShedBOy]

lmao, + 1 Cookie for Elbonio

Embassy i completely agree with you mate, it is amusing to see so many multiplay employees jumping to the defense of there own service.... mainly because in doing so they are completely putting you in your place ;)

I have MPUK DSL and i cant fault it. I really cant. The ping in constantly < 20 on almost any server (UT, bf2, hl2dm, hidden, ut99) that i have been on since taking up the service. Iv been on the end of seriously sh!t ISP service, and guess what! It was NTL!

They couldn't care less if my ping was sky high, they wanted to know if i could see web pages, which if i could they then considered the issue closed.

One of the reasons that you stated about not liking ADSL was because it goes through old copper wires through part of the BT network, which i must admit is a real pain when your trying to look like "a pro gamer" in a server.

You just know everyone else in the server is laughing at you cus ur using "copper wired" internet, whilst they are usig some seriously sexy coaxial... boo!

[ShedBOy]

i have a BSc:Hons in computer science so i do know my stuff i just choose to ignore it
Quote of the year! right there! *\o/*

[Elbonio]

for the record i have a BSc:Hons in computer science so i do know my stuff i just choose to ignore it


quote of the year I believe.

Edit: Meshed - Get out my head bitch!

freaky... :p

[shred_dog]

Elbonio, youre the king. Brilliant analogy :)

Case in point: I have one of the fastest commercial cable packages available in the States. I have a 10Mbps connection. I can download porn at BLINDING (get it? hahahaha) speeds. I used to connect to TrufF's and MPUK at around a 70 ping with no packet loss. I added 200 channels of Digital Cable TV with a DVR, cos I have that kind of time, and now my pings are 200+ with tons of packlet loss.

A block away, at our local coffee shop, I can drift on ATT (American telephone and Telegraph)'s unencrypted network. ATT is partnered with yahoo! and offering cheap dsl - 256kbps for $14.95USD/month. I can connect WIRELESSLY to their DSL and play on MPUK at around 50ms pings!!!!!

My point? Latency on my super fast Rhino connection is HORRIBLE. On the DSL at the switching station from the coffee shop its perfect. absolutely perfect.


Elbonio, how fast is the muppet connection??? :)

[jugster]

LOL.. I a BSc... Stands for Bull**** Certificate... ;)

I have worked in IT for 15 years.. I dont know about routing and edgeserver laitency or how to write a good webpage. i leave it to the experts.. ;) I can admin server and setup users with the best of them. I know my place, I suggest you learn yours...

Juggy

[Jester]

Ok Elbonio, so who has my pie, the hippo or the hound ?

[Shazz]

erm... you claim to have a BSc in computer science... and you work for BT... i highly ****nig doubt it. if you had any sence (which you clearly don't) you'd go and work for a decent company.

It's not a suprised either that your rambling is complete bull****.


oh and, how many people have you told to ping 192.168.1.1 today? As the amount of knowledge you seem to show amounts to tech (phone) support...

[Elbonio]

Ok Elbonio, so who has my pie, the hippo or the hound ?

The pie was 128-bit encrypted and so both the hippo and the dog choked on it and died.

[Jester]

Ah so I should have set a different PTU ?

[Elbonio]

You needed to learn the heimlich manoeuvre.

[Baz]

so if NTL = hippo, and multiplay = Greyhound, is telewest some freakish hippo/greyhound hybrid that should never breathe gods oxygen?






/flee

[ShedBOy]

Edit: Meshed - Get out my head bitch!
i find it quite cosy in here tbh ;p

[Neon]

Just think, you could have not made this thread and you would have at least 60 more minutes of your life left.

Can I nominate this for thread of 2006? :)

[Aardvark]

i work for BT internet

This is synonymous with 'I don't have a clue about this stuff' btw. I wouldn't admit to such things if you want ANYONE to take your argument seriously.

Also good for this is a technique I call 'not talking complete ****'.

[jugster]

Voted. \o/

[rick_2k]

Well i work for bill gates so you can all bow down to me and touch my start bar:love:

[Knight ArmagoN]

ELBONIO, YOU WIN EVERYTHING..... I.. I think i love you

[Hg]

Embassy, why dont you go else where and never return to these forums, MPUK have been very good to me as ADSL subscriber and unlike you i live in the county and ADSL is the only option out here.
Plus my line only supports 512K and MPUK ADSL is great at what is does I don’t get kicked from games for having poor pings etc.

If indeed you work for BT I cant wait for them to hand you your P45, you spotty little asshole you must be a right dick to work with!

Now listen to the friendly advise given to you by the staff here at Multiplay and go buy this
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beginners-Guide-Broadband-Wireless-Internet/dp/1840244992/sr=8-2/qid=1166113291/ref=sr_1_2/202-9555003-6180645?ie=UTF8&s=books)

[jugster]

or

http://www.amazon.com/Absolute-Beginners-Guide-Computer-Basics/dp/0789728966/sr=1-3/qid=1166113718/ref=pd_bbs_3/102-0280115-5304905?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Cabe]

it explains why BT's customer services are so dire if they are employing these kinds of people.

[Dan]

Scrap the guide for just the internet, I think he needs something a little more basic...



http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8528/bookguidetolifemc9.jpg


This, perhaps?

[Anim]

Holy fing sht this is hilarious. By his theories i could have a 1gb connection on the moon and get a better service for my gaming pleasure.

I just think its a shame he spent so long on his first post only to have it turn out so wrong.

[Semajal]

Great topic, love how Embassy got a bit owned but ill be interested to see what he thinks of MPUK DSL. I hope to switch over soonish as my bandwidth use is not really high and i RAGE at Plusnet and the ****e pings and connection issues i get.

[jugster]

So... Heres a question. How do I check my latency against that of MPUK? I have at work a 6mb Lease line which is meant to be the dogs thingys but is it any good for gaming? (No I dont play games at work... just interested as we pay £17k pa for it... ).

Juggy

[RocketKnight]

i work for BT internet
Thank you for reinforcing my decision to never, ever, EVER use a BT product or service. EVER.

[rick_2k]

Best thread ever.

[Elbonio]

So... Heres a question. How do I check my latency against that of MPUK? I have at work a 6mb Lease line which is meant to be the dogs thingys but is it any good for gaming? (No I dont play games at work... just interested as we pay £17k pa for it... ).

Juggy

Leased lines will be VERY good for gaming :p

Think of it as your own private road to the internet ;)

[jugster]

well my Cisco pix (Thats a firewall for anyone working for BT!) tells me that a ping to www.multiplay.co.uk takes 10ms and its constant.. ;) Cant complain then I guess.

Juggy.

[Anim]

Im on mpukdsl and will often have a latency of single digits on various games. On some of my more frequented cs (/spit) servers double figures is unheard of as theyre hosted by mpuk too.

[SystemId]

Controversial

[winbar]

4 years of college, and plenty of knowledge, have earned me this useless degree...

I cant pay the bills yet, cos I have no skills yet...

[Gunsmith]

jesus i miss all the good stuff at work.

[Portia]

I could fill a 2TB NAS full of data at work, put it in the back of the car and be home in 20 mins.

That would be 1.6Gbps...

[Jester]

But I still wouldnt have my pie back.

[bvark]

It's really all about the jitter and the packet loss - most FPS games have very good latency compensation algorithms these days that can provide a good experience if the latency is constant (i.e. low jitter).

Lots of Cisco 7200/7300s in the path performing CPU-based L2TP encapsulation and decapsulation isn't great for jitter, but neither is a shared-frequency cable network where there are potentially lots of very bursty other users.

If money was no object it'd be FTTH for my gaming, but for reality in the UK it has to be LLU, at least for the time being.

[Nes]

i like the diagram :) but i understand your argument and for the record i have a BSc:Hons in computer science so i do know my stuff i just choose to ignore it as i said before in my experience you cannot compare adsl to cable.


/Giggle

Did you actually get all your facts from the spread sheet of answers and troubleshooting that bt give you?

[Guigsy]

Sorry but first i ignored your post after the first sentance.
How you can say adsl isnt broadband because it uses a phone line is stunningly dim.
I did internet computing at university (and for the record i failed my first year once and my second year, i didnt even get to do my third) and even i know thats a load of crap... ;)

ive had 33.6k, 56k, single and dual isdn aswell as broadband on 512, 1mb, 2mb and 8mb and tbh i couldnt tell a huge difference between isdn on a 70 ping and adsl 8mb at 16 ping.

Infact with my 8meg adsl at the moment im having disconnection issues ive tried with various different routers. so an isp change will be next i think. i dont do much downloading. and all i play online is guildwars. so i think mpuk will be my next step. i need reliability. although my isp have said my connection has been up for x days. it regulary drops 3-4 times a night.

[Cypher]

in responce to the "crap telewest or Ntl is the only choice for the pro gamer" line...

I'm on a UpTo2Mb with Pipex (who I wont currently reccomend), and I get no lag whatsoever when playing RTS, or MMOs, and a latency of 6-12 when playing games like CS:Source

Maybe you should've played some games, rather than paying for a wasted education imo.

[CyberDrac]

As a user of MPDSL, I find that my gaming experience has vastly improved, my pings are steady at sub-20 and the whole experience has been a wonderful one. I came from BTOpenWorld, but, because of the lack of gaming optimisation my pings were all over the place. On a side note I had a visit from a cable provider, who asked who my provider was and why I wouldn't leave them, I asked him if he could provide steady sub-20 ping for gaming and he left shortly afterwards apologising for wasting my time.

CD

[porsche]

I'm predicting that MPUK created Embassy so that they could have this thread full of MPUK goodness :)

-Porsche-

[Mastacheif]

can we say "served" yet?

[Pingman]

Sorry but first i ignored your post after the first sentance.
How you can say adsl isnt broadband because it uses a phone line is stunningly dim.
I did internet computing at university (and for the record i failed my first year once and my second year, i didnt even get to do my third) and even i know thats a load of crap... ;)

ive had 33.6k, 56k, single and dual isdn aswell as broadband on 512, 1mb, 2mb and 8mb and tbh i couldnt tell a huge difference between isdn on a 70 ping and adsl 8mb at 16 ping.

Infact with my 8meg adsl at the moment im having disconnection issues ive tried with various different routers. so an isp change will be next i think. i dont do much downloading. and all i play online is guildwars. so i think mpuk will be my next step. i need reliability. although my isp have said my connection has been up for x days. it regulary drops 3-4 times a night.

Your not on tiscali are you?

[Matt]

erm... you claim to have a BSc in computer science... and you work for BT... i highly ****nig doubt it.

He probably does. My money is hes the Tea Boy :roller:

[Preed]

All I can say is MPUK wtfpwns BY(NTL) as I have both connections and guess what I don't have a spangly bsc in comp sci.

I'm just a software engineer for the British Government, does this mean I know anything about networking, GOD NO.

All I know is that MPUK is by far the single best ISP I've ever been with, it's so smooth, like trying to push a greased whale down a whale sized chute really...

BY is great for downloading, no doubt but when playing games I usually have one the worst cases of packet loss and choke I've ever seen, excluding: Virgin.net, Tiscali, Bulldog, Pipex and about 50 other isps I've been with.

As for bandwidth caps, so what? You'll be restricted to 0.25mbp/s what's the big deal, you purchase this service to play games, not to download upskirt shots of Britney Spears climbing out of a mercedes.

[Baz]

although that is an advantage of it.

or not if you've actually seen them /shudder

[Elbonio]

I too am a multiple connection man.

I have 10Mbit NTL and Multiplay DSL

I use my NTL to download and my DSL for gaming.

Now I like NTL - search the forums and you'll see im always sticking up for them, but when it comes to gaming they just cant hack it. Too many customers to look after the minority which is the gamers.

Thus thats why Multiplay DSL is so great - we're not huge. We are premium broadband for serious gamers.

Okay so your pay a few quid more per month but at the end of the day, it's worth it if you like gaming.

I like wine so you dont see me buying much jacobs creek.

[Preed]

indeed,

Due to a lack of cable in my area (NTL/BY is at my better halfs house) I pair my DSL with a Sat broadband connection for 24mbit downstream when I need large files, though I do tend to use my DSL for a fair bit of downloading too, mainly if the item is sub 1gb.

I can honestly say I don't mind paying the extra cash, since I'm already an i-series atendee, forum lurker, server renter and dsl customer hehe!

[rick_2k]

I too am a multiple connection man.

I have 10Mbit NTL and Multiplay DSL

I use my NTL to download and my DSL for gaming.

Now I like NTL - search the forums and you'll see im always sticking up for them, but when it comes to gaming they just cant hack it. Too many customers to look after the minority which is the gamers.

For many months i was seriously considering the same setup but in the end it just cost too much.. that must be very nice though ;)

[Semajal]

I could fill a 2TB NAS full of data at work, put it in the back of the car and be home in 20 mins.

That would be 1.6Gbps...

I like your reasoning :)

[Zenith]

This is just a quality thread! :)

I forgot to mention that I've not been on MPDSL since about July. After a bad experience with an ISP that begins with 'T' (4 weeks I'd rather forget), I am now on an ISP that is like MPDSL in many ways but without the 2Mbit speed limit on ADSL Max.

[TimmyNoShoes]

.

[Species]

Well all I can say is some of us are not able to get cable and tbh I don't care if it's more expensive than some other isps cos I can tell you now the support is waaaaaaaaaaay better no waiting in big phone queues to speak to someone.

It's speedy, it's reliable and I know there's someone just a phone call away should I have a problem.

At the end of the day why come here and post this crap unless you want to cause trouble, I'd imagine most of multiplays customers like myself go to some of the i-series and/or purchase other services from them so your preaching to the wrong crowd.

[JeRkY]

either that or its a good way to see what people actually think of the service... spout off a load of crap...if people agree...you know its not for you...if lots of people disagree and say its good ...its obviously worth a go

[wizard1974uk]

Embassy,

Do you actually have a multiplay ADSL account?

[Dunceantix]

Embassy,

Do you actually have a multiplay ADSL account?


But having said that im going to take out your service for a month and compare it to telewest and then we shall see who is better watch this space i will post the conclusions of which here.

[Wizzo]

I'm predicting that MPUK created Embassy so that they could have this thread full of MPUK goodness :)

-Porsche-

Damn I wish I'd thought of that :). I clearly have a few levels to go in the "marketroid" talent tree.

Must say it is nice to see so many great comments from you guys sticking up to what is clearly someone very misinformed. I guess that's even more beer I owe at the bar at i30 :D

[Jingles]

Funniest thread I've read in ages.
Gratz to Elbonio and Baz on some legendary posts

[wizard1974uk]

Even if he is going to try the service for a month, don't you think it was very rude of him to spout off about a product that he hasn't even used yet?

[Hg]

I guess that's even more beer I owe at the bar at i30 :D

Na this weekend at stratlan will do just fine

[JeRkY]

In complete fairness to multiplay, you dont see NTL buying any rounds at the bar :)

Multiplay knows what gamers want from an isp... low pings, good customer service...and beer!

[Joey[kins]]

Even if he is going to try the service for a month, don't you think it was very rude of him to spout off about a product that he hasn't even used yet?
He's clearly trying to get a "we'll give it to you free for a month and then you can post how wonderful it is when your eyes have been opened" commitment out of MPDSL tbh

I'm fully specced up in marketroid now :p

[kandy]

WIZZO DID A SONY!

[Unplugged]

I have a BSc:Hons in computer science so i do know my stuff i just choose to ignore it as i said before in my experience you cannot compare adsl to cable.

Wow you have convinced me. A Bachelors Degree in IT and working for BT Helpdesk. Who would have thought that we were dealing with somebody with so much computer knowledge. what was your result 2/2 3?

You sir truly are a Master Debater.

I see how cable is better than ADSL now espcecially for like the 60% of the country who cant get Cable but pray to the god of interweb before they sleep that NTL will actually spend some money increasing thier coverage area (not likely anytime soon)

And for your information no not all ADSL goes via BTs central network maybe you should look up LLU which can in a lot of instances be a hell of a lot better than cable I know I've had myself when I was on NTL petition to move pipe as my then 600k connection was crawling due to the amount of traffic.

BT have a monopoly on the market and as such Of com have not allowed them to lower their bandwidth prices as it would crush the LLU market as a result every man and his dog can provide bandwidth cheaper than BT but enabling x000 exchanges takes a lot of investment.

We have BE in our exchange and while we have no chance of getting 24meg the only person I know on it gets around 14meg and it performs just as well if not better than my colleagues NTL connection.

[Unplugged]

I could fill a 2TB NAS full of data at work, put it in the back of the car and be home in 20 mins.

That would be 1.6Gbps...

If would almost be like an implementation of CPIP

http://blug.linux.no/rfc1149/

I opted for increasing the bandwidth by cable tying USB pens to their legs but unfortunately that would increase the packet loss too.

[Nikumba]

Since I had ADSL i have been with 2 ISP first Zen then moved to MPUK for the 8Mb ADSL, and granted they had problems with it and were upfront about the problems and said its not working so we wont make you pay for it, to me is an utterly outstanding that a company would say that, other ISPs with IP Max issue wont say that.

So i was rate limited to 2mb and not had any problems, i get the odd disconnect but that is down to my aging netgear router. The other advantage of the MPUK DSL is it is 3 hops onto the gaming racks and since MPUK host a utter shed load of Source, BF, CoD etc server thats ideal for me.

Also I am able to host a small source server that will handle 8 players fantasically well with the outside world getting a ping ~60 I very much doubt ANY other ISP could achive that, but MPUK can since they have looked at what people want and have delivered a product that is fast, stable and is backed up by what I would call the best support of any ISP I have used, both at home and dealing with our customers ISP's

One thing you did point out embassy about the copper wire, you will fine the problems are not from the copper but the alu wire they are using. My parents lost their line a few months back and it was a fault with the alu wiring, and while repairing it they managed to knock several other houses off the system due to how fragile the alu wiring really is.

Kimbie

[squeeb]

I actually love you Elbonio :)

[manface]

The 40 GB cap is a bit weak, I get unlimited at the moment for same price - I'm with zen internet - I presume this is MaxDSL that MP are offering ?

[Say_Ten]

I see how cable is better than ADSL now espcecially for like the 60% of the country who cant get Cable but pray to the god of interweb before they sleep that NTL will actually spend some money increasing thier coverage area (not likely anytime soon)

I hope not, I've seen my BY connection get steadily worse since the merger. Pings have easily doubled since my brum -> london route got changed to brum -> manchester -> leeds -> london. That said though it does seem to be within the first two hops that get me to 20ms, I used to have 12ms to London :( So Cable now need to seriously invest in it's infrastructure to be gaming level again, especially with their 50Mb trials.

Good job I don't have time for games these days ;)

[Aardvark]

The 40 GB cap is a bit weak, I get unlimited at the moment for same price - I'm with zen internet - I presume this is MaxDSL that MP are offering ?

What games are you playing that need 40GB per month? :rolleyes:

[Knight ArmagoN]

LOL that Dude has actually been ganked by the HORDE (MPUK Community)

[Unplugged]

I hope not, I've seen my BY connection get steadily worse since the merger. Pings have easily doubled since my brum -> london route got changed to brum -> manchester -> leeds -> london. That said though it does seem to be within the first two hops that get me to 20ms, I used to have 12ms to London :( So Cable now need to seriously invest in it's infrastructure to be gaming level again, especially with their 50Mb trials.

Good job I don't have time for games these days ;)

Unfortunatly NTL will just play the game like everyone else. There customers see the shiney "Up to 50 Meg" and think that it means fast. The fact that there download is coming in at 6meg speeds means nothing to them.

All the time they can scrape themselfs into barely making a profit witout investment they will.

[Say_Ten]

Aye, it's also that during the merger they looked at both companies tech and chose the inferior of the two each time. I could dial 056 numbers before they merged, now I can't. I now suffer because shareholders are greedy :(

Edit: 056 numbers do actually work again!

[wizard1974uk]

;587213']He's clearly trying to get a "we'll give it to you free for a month and then you can post how wonderful it is when your eyes have been opened" commitment out of MPDSL tbh

I'm fully specced up in marketroid now :p

Hmm, but will he get it though? :D

[Rich]

The main point is you say "what games use 40GB per month". Fine no games will but the fact is people dont buy a net connection just for games. People like to e able to download what they like without fear of having their service crippled. Us gamer types download a lot of treasure, thats also pretty much a fact, and slapping caps on packages will put people who would otherwise be interested off.

[K]

That may be the case but without limitations any DSL service is unsustainable given the current BT central costs.

[Rich]

When ISPs do this though, I just get the impression they cant really afford to be in the game if they start whacking restrictions and limits on things, not just MPDSL or ISPs but any company.

Its like when you rent a car and they say dont go over 800 miles, its like WTF you've paid for the car you should be able to drive it whereever you want. Oh and btw this car is limited at 20mph. So you go down the road to the next rental agency who let you drive any distance at 80mph :P Sure you can make the analogy that the cars from the first company will drive on clearer roads as if by magic but still, I recon most people would go for a more complete package.

I recon I must be right or MPDSL would be at #1 ;)

[Unplugged]

When ISPs do this though, I just get the impression they cant really afford to be in the game if they start whacking restrictions and limits on things, not just MPDSL or ISPs but any company.

Its like when you rent a car and they say dont go over 800 miles, its like WTF you've paid for the car you should be able to drive it whereever you want. Oh and btw this car is limited at 20mph. So you go down the road to the next rental agency who let you drive any distance at 80mph :P Sure you can make the analogy that the cars from the first company will drive on clearer roads as if by magic but still, I recon most people would go for a more complete package.

I recon I must be right or MPDSL would be at #1 ;)

And prob loosing money too.

The only people that can afford to give away high usage connections are the people not paying BT for their centrals. Once you add speed into that equation though even that starts getting tight.

Multiplay are not a huge ISP and as such probably cant afford to be as leniate as most ISPs but there is no such thing as "unlimited" broadband on a contended service they all throw caps, FUPs and Shaping into the equation even the larger ISPs now. If you want unlimited have a look at the cost of Leased Line 1:1 vs any contended service.

I would imagine they wouldent want to be at number #1 because if they were too large it would destroy the service for their key target audiance.

[lyn]

When ISPs do this though, I just get the impression they cant really afford to be in the game if they start whacking restrictions and limits on things, not just MPDSL or ISPs but any company.

Its like when you rent a car and they say dont go over 800 miles, its like WTF you've paid for the car you should be able to drive it whereever you want. Oh and btw this car is limited at 20mph. So you go down the road to the next rental agency who let you drive any distance at 80mph :P Sure you can make the analogy that the cars from the first company will drive on clearer roads as if by magic but still, I recon most people would go for a more complete package.

I recon I must be right or MPDSL would be at #1 ;)

Alot of rental companies do limit you in mileage. Most don't allow over 500 miles.

[manface]

What games are you playing that need 40GB per month? :rolleyes:

Eh ? No games require 40GB :confused: stop being a nub.

But, I like to download stuff, Itunes, pics from friends/relatives, movies.

And especially with HD content on the horizon, you're gonna need that extra GB.

Plus I game a lot.

Go here http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/ I've been a member of this forum for over five years, so I do know a little about broadband.

[SilentMike]

Eh ? No games require 40GB :confused: stop being a nub.

But, I like to download stuff, Itunes, pics from friends/relatives, movies.

And especially with HD content on the horizon, you're gonna need that extra GB.

Plus I game a lot.

Go here http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/ I've been a member of this forum for over five years, so I do know a little about broadband.

Hopefully when hd content becomes more popular bandwidth prices will be cheaper.

[TheDon]

Eh ? No games require 40GB :confused: stop being a nub.

But, I like to download stuff, Itunes, pics from friends/relatives, movies.

And especially with HD content on the horizon, you're gonna need that extra GB.

Plus I game a lot.

Go here http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/ I've been a member of this forum for over five years, so I do know a little about broadband.

That is the point, mpdsl is aimed at people who do very little downloading, and alot of gaming, as such, they don't need the high download limits.

The way I see it you can choose one of two things when you choose an ISP, either high performance low bandwidth, or low performance high bandwidth. The first is suited to gamers, or people who have a reliance on low latency programs (voip for example) the second for people who download movies, tv shows, and just about everything else but you have to put up with a congested network, packet shaping, etc.

You CANNOT have it both ways, so the price premium goes either for the bandwidth or the performance.

[Georgecooldude]

i like the diagram :) but i understand your argument and for the record i have a BSc:Hons in computer science so i do know my stuff i just choose to ignore it as i said before in my experience you cannot compare adsl to cable.

Normally this course has a networking module. I'm assuming you were on holiday while this was taking place?:as-spin:

Can you tell me where I can buy the answers?:icon15::slider:

[Aardvark]

Eh ? No games require 40GB :confused: stop being a nub.

But, I like to download stuff, Itunes, pics from friends/relatives, movies.

And especially with HD content on the horizon, you're gonna need that extra GB.

Plus I game a lot.

Go here http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/ I've been a member of this forum for over five years, so I do know a little about broadband.

Show me a service that has no/high usage cap AND stable low latency and I'll show you a company that will be in the can in 12 months.

[Rich]

Alot of rental companies do limit you in mileage. Most don't allow over 500 miles.

I know, but a lot dont as well for similar prices, thats me point ;)

When 50MB cable comes out MPDSL is going to be 25 times slower :O Gadzooks. Shame theres no way of running DSL at decent speeds. What do the guys that run 24mb services use? Is that LLU stuff?

[Freelance]

i'm wondering how long the unlimited downloads 'free lunch' will continue with services going that fast. i was on plusnet with a 20gb soft cap, and i would struggle to come near that with patches, demos, trailers, betas for random MMOs, and occasional linux iso images when i'm bored. it's going to be very interesting in the next few years with more companies (amazon, microsoft/XBL do it already) offering full HD quality movies and tv series by download, and more services like steam (maybe). i can see lots more people eating up their bandwidth allowance

[Boffykins]

Show me a service that has no/high usage cap AND stable low latency and I'll show you a company that will be in the can in 12 months.You might want to stretch that to "and uses BTCentrals", cos otherwise I'd hit you with Be, Bulldog, Sky etc.

[GeeDee]

When ISPs do this though, I just get the impression they cant really afford to be in the game if they start whacking restrictions and limits on things, not just MPDSL or ISPs but any company.

Just to give you an idea how wrong that statment is - the absolute cheapest price per megabit for traffic over a BT Central (which excludes the cost of bandwidth from your ISPs network on to the internet itself, actually providing your network infrastructure, support staff, tech staff, billing systems, website and the ~£30,000 BT Central install cost) is about £200. This also assumes you have the 'biggest' central available, are running it at maximum capacity and does not include the ~£8 per month 'tail cost' per line you connect. And all this money gets you is traffic from peoples BT phone lines to your network, wherever that may be. Getting this traffic on to the internet is more money for you. :)

Therefore your unlimited ADSL connection at 2meg would cost you about £400 + £8 + £[cost of everything else your ISP has to pay for] per month. For an 8meg IP MAX service, it's more like £1600 per month. Leased lines are actually cheaper at this point. Oh, and remember this is about as cheap as it gets - a lot of ISPs will be paying more. :)

The only way an ISP can offer 'unlimited' is either to accept that their centrals are going to be running at well above full whack all the time and introduce QoS or other forms of traffic management (bad for latency therefore bad for gaming) or to work out a maximum amount of data transfer per line per month. Some ISPs still take the calculated risk that they can get enough very low usage customers to balance out the high usage ones - but more often than not you just can't do that now - so many people leave bittorrent running all day and all night that the rest of the network ends up crippled as a result. Therefore, the only thing left to do is set hard limits on people.

What do the guys that run 24mb services use? Is that LLU stuff?

Yes; that's when an ISP has their own equipment located in your local telephone exchange and therefore has no need for a BT Central. Apparently though the actual costs of backhauling data even under LLU are not all that much lower than letting BT do it for you (most LLU ISPs are still paying BT lots of money to effectively link the LLU kit in the exchanges to the ISPs networks elsewhere anyway) - so we can probably see limitations being applied even to LLU further down the line, when they start seeing contention on these networks too. :)

[Rich]

But whats changed? We used to see the unlimited packages out there all the time? Everyone discovered the joys of warez?

[GeeDee]

P2P has become much more prevalent, people are downloading multi-gigabyte movies instead of the odd MP3 file, sites like youtube have appeared and above all people now expect up to 8Mb DSL instead of 2m/bit (instead of 1m/bit (instead of 512k)) whilst the cost per megabit to ISPs has barely changed at all.

More people use more bandwidth than a few years ago; but the cost has not really gone down.

You only have to look here (http://portal.plus.net/support/displayImage.php?strImageFile=network-usage.gif) to see just how much P2P pushes traffic levels up for a medium sized ISP!

:)

[Zenith]

Interesting graph. I notice that peer-to-peer stays constant throughout the day and night, taking up whatever slack there is in the network.

[TheDon]

Aye, a few years back it used to be one guy downloaded all the mov... linux distros and then burnt them to cd for his mates, now it's everyone just downloads them themselves.
Plus 10mb doesn't mean that people are just downloading things 10x faster than when they were on 1mb, instead they decide to get the full 4.5gb dvdr's instead of the 720mb rips.

The usage levels of the "normal" user has heavily increased, it's now very rare to find people that just use the internet for browsing and email, everyone wants the high bandwidth content.

[Unplugged]

But whats changed? We used to see the unlimited packages out there all the time? Everyone discovered the joys of warez?

What changed was a surge in the amount of people with Broadband and the ease of p2p use and a change in pricing structure from BT to allow ISPs to offer high speed connections but with expensive bandwidth that if your not using it at close to 100% 99% of the time you start loosing money.
Hence shaping to cram as many people in a low amount of bandwidth

[her0n]

Rated 5! Lets get this thread gold!

Fake edit: Wait, what do you mean this isn't the somethingawful forums? :rolleyes:

[GeeDee]

Plus 10mb doesn't mean that people are just downloading things 10x faster than when they were on 1mb

Thing is, it does actually. Irrespective of the amount of data you are transferring, when each user can download 8 times faster than they used to be able to; but the bandwidth available to all users on the network is the same finite amount it was before, it takes 8 times less users to max out the network.

It used to take ~622 users at 1m/bit to max a 622m/bit BT Central. Now it could be as low as ~78 (let's not have the 'your maths isn't totally accurate' argument and the 'it's not actually 8 m/bit' argument - I know, i'm just providing a rough illustration).

Whilst you can say 'yes, but they will get their files quicker' - you still end up maxing out a portion of your network, even if it's not sustained, which causes latency. The solution to help combat this for ISPs is - you guessed it - QoS / traffic prioritisation.

:)

Interesting graph. I notice that peer-to-peer stays constant throughout the day and night, taking up whatever slack there is in the network.

Indeed. It shows that their network is constantly maxed out; but their traffic management (in theory) lets everything else through first, and gives the P2P whatever is left over. It also largely works, but it's not perfect. As bvark said, all that data has to be processed before it can continue with whatever priority weighting it is assigned. A lot of kit is supposedly wire speed; but gamers often see a difference nevertheless. There's also the problem of identifying all the games out there without making it trivial for people to make their bittorrent client look like games traffic to the network. Squllions of tiny UDP packets to a huge host of different ports must present a bit of a challenge to identify and classify. :)

Giles.

[TheDon]

Thing is, it does actually. Irrespective of the amount of data you are transferring, when each user can download 8 times faster than they used to be able to; but the bandwidth available to all users on the network is the same finite amount it was before, it takes 8 times less users to max out the network.

Way to cut off a sentence and take it out of context. Please never go into journalism. My point was that while they are downloading 10x faster, they are also prone to downloading far more than they were before.

Yes, they are downloading 10x faster, but if everyone was just downloading everything they downloaded before, but 10x faster, there wouldn't really be as much of a problem. But because they have 10x the bandwidth they are more likely to choose the 4.5gb version of something other than the 700mb they were getting before.

[her0n]

Note how this joker has slinked off ? :p

[GeeDee]

I know what you were saying TheDon, no need to get so upset.

You may well be correct; but my point stands regardless. I have no idea whether enough people to show a difference are pulling down DVD images or not and that wasn't what I was saying - so I didn't quote it. :)

Giles.

[rick_2k]

Note how this joker has slinked off ? :p

he has either shat himself and ran away or is laughing his ****ing ass off i bet :)

[wizard1974uk]

he has either shat himself and ran away or is laughing his ****ing ass off i bet :)

Dunno, but he's made a fool of himself either way.

[Rich]

Depends which way you look at it, his intnetion could of been to start a pointless discussion and waste everyones time. In which case he may well be laughing his ass off ;)

[Unplugged]

People wont download less the amount of people who queue up about 50 times more in Bittorrant a faster connection will just speed up their queue maybe.

[oxy]

erm... you claim to have a BSc in computer science... and you work for BT... i highly ****nig doubt it. if you had any sence (which you clearly don't) you'd go and work for a decent company.


You Clearly know nothing about BT as a company so stop there

[wizard1974uk]

Depends which way you look at it, his intnetion could of been to start a pointless discussion and waste everyones time. In which case he may well be laughing his ass off ;)

If that's the case, he must lead a really sad life :D

[tiSSue]

You Clearly know nothing about BT as a company so stop there


quite

[wizard1974uk]

You Clearly know nothing about BT as a company so stop there

So for the un-enlightened amongst us, please elaborate.

[kamelion]

I have the best of boath worlds - low latency and high bandwidth.

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]


Pinging core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=124
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=124
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=124
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=124

Ping statistics for 85.236.96.22:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 12ms, Maximum = 13ms, Average = 12ms

I can't show you my download speed because of the 15 post limit but trust me, its higher than NTL

Can NTL beat that at £24 a month? I think not. Thats why I switched, that and because I kept getting routed through silly places. By the way I'm in manchester not london so hardly on multiplay's doorstep. I used to ping 30 on cable.

My current ISP? Beunlimited ADSL2+.

[Murray-Mint]

I'm on Telewest and am currently getting:


Pinging core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=121
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=121
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=121
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=121

Ping statistics for 85.236.96.22:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 11ms, Maximum = 14ms, Average = 12ms

Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 10.85.0.1
2 11 ms 9 ms 10 ms 62.30.112.42
3 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms pc-62-30-242-74-bn.blueyonder.co.uk [62.30.242.74]
4 14 ms 16 ms 13 ms ge-2-0-7.lon11.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.37]
5 15 ms 14 ms 25 ms multiplay-gw-2.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.86]
6 23 ms 204 ms 206 ms po0-1-651-cr.ixnlon.as35028.net [85.236.110.11]
7 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

Trace complete.


My Home/Mother's Multiplay DSL is currently getting:


$ping dname core1.multiplay.co.uk
64 bytes of data from 85.236.96.22, seq=0 ttl=126 rtt=30 msec
64 bytes of data from 85.236.96.22, seq=1 ttl=126 rtt=20 msec
64 bytes of data from 85.236.96.22, seq=2 ttl=126 rtt=20 msec
64 bytes of data from 85.236.96.22, seq=3 ttl=126 rtt=20 msec

$traceroute dname core1.multiplay.co.uk ping

Tracing route to [85.236.96.22]
Over a maximum of 30 hops
1 20 ms 30 ms 20 ms 85.236.110.10
2 30 ms 20 ms 30 ms 85.236.110.11
3 20 ms 20 ms 30 ms 85.236.96.22
Trace complete.



However, the Telewest connection is in Croydon, the Multiplay DSL connection is in Gloucestershire. Also, this is ICMP traffic which will have a lower priority whereas gaming traffic is mostly UDP, which is prioritised AFAIK on Multiplay DSL.

[kamelion]

Not very good that is it? 3 hops is nice (compared to my 4 - 5 if you include my router) but still, a variation of 10 milliseconds?. Why is she sending 64 byte packets?

[Say_Ten]

However, the Telewest connection is in Croydon, the Multiplay DSL connection is in Gloucestershire. Also, this is ICMP traffic which will have a lower priority whereas gaming traffic is mostly UDP, which is prioritised AFAIK on Multiplay DSL.

This comment is key and kinda ended up tucked away at the bottom. A true comparison could only be made with ADSL and Cable from the same premises. Croydon being considerably closer to core1.multiplay.co.uk than Gloucestershire has a massive impact on these results. It just shows that Murray is a complete tech head because he doesn't elaborate on this point ;)

Then there's the fact it's not UDP ping but ICMP but I don't think that has so much of a bearing. Comparing UDP and ICMP would be wrong though ;)

Some results for ADSL in Croydon would be good though.

[Wizzo]

Not a surprising variation. Croydon is far closer geographically to the location of the server and is one of the smallest traces from NTL/BY I've seen. Try comparing it to a trace from someone on NTL/BY in Brum or even further afield. You often get some interesting "creative routing" :)

For comparison, here is a trace and pings from an Easynet (LLU) ADSL conn in Kennington (a fairer comparison geographically to Croydon than Gloucestershire):


Host Loss% Snt Last Avg Best Wrst StDev
1. host2.iclon.multiplay.co.uk 0.0% 24 0.8 0.8 0.8 1.1 0.1
2. cr0.wrvaux.uk.easynet.net 0.0% 23 51.9 26.5 11.3 60.4 17.0
3. 82.111.96.49 0.0% 23 6.3 5.9 5.2 6.6 0.4
4. ip-89-200-132-53.ov.easynet.net 40.9% 23 7.4 14.7 6.4 67.4 18.8
5. ge2-1-0.er3.tclon.uk.easynet.net 0.0% 23 6.5 6.1 5.5 6.6 0.3
6. 195.66.226.224 0.0% 23 6.6 6.9 6.3 7.7 0.4
7. po0-1-650-cr1.ixnlon.as35028.net 0.0% 23 7.2 14.5 6.3 183.7 36.9
8. dev1.multiplay.co.uk 0.0% 23 6.6 6.7 6.0 7.4 0.4

PING dev1.multiplay.co.uk (85.236.96.17): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 85.236.96.17: icmp_seq=0 ttl=58 time=6.201 ms
64 bytes from 85.236.96.17: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=6.744 ms
64 bytes from 85.236.96.17: icmp_seq=2 ttl=58 time=6.442 ms
64 bytes from 85.236.96.17: icmp_seq=3 ttl=58 time=7.211 ms
64 bytes from 85.236.96.17: icmp_seq=4 ttl=58 time=6.910 ms
64 bytes from 85.236.96.17: icmp_seq=5 ttl=58 time=7.208 ms

As a technology cable should generally give you lower latency than ADSL, especially for people who are farther from the exchange. Living "in the sticks" a good 5+km from the exchange, I get 28ms pings to Multiplay. However, in practice with the way the networks are operated this is (increasingly) not always the case.

[ProfLiebstrom]

This is a blueyonder trace for further afield :p (Sheffield to be exact.) If people want it to compare.

Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 8 ms 8 ms 7 ms 10.165.0.1
2 6 ms 8 ms 7 ms gsr01-sh.blueyonder.co.uk [62.30.241.65]
3 14 ms 15 ms 16 ms 62.30.252.93
4 13 ms 14 ms 14 ms 62.30.252.57
5 13 ms 17 ms 13 ms usr506-kno.cableinet.co.uk [194.117.138.10]
6 13 ms 15 ms 13 ms 194.117.136.166
7 28 ms 27 ms 28 ms ge-2-0-7.lon11.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.37]
8 30 ms 29 ms 28 ms multiplay-gw-2.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.86]
9 28 ms 27 ms 40 ms po0-1-651-cr.ixnlon.as35028.net [85.236.110.11]

10 28 ms 27 ms 28 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

[Kibit]

Here is a tracert from my blueyonder connection at work (Walsall)

Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 11 ms 11 ms 15 ms 10.21.0.1
2 11 ms 13 ms 8 ms gsr01-wa.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.176.193]
3 14 ms 25 ms 14 ms pc-62-30-254-53-du.blueyonder.co.uk [62.30.254.53]
4 14 ms 16 ms 23 ms pc-62-30-254-14-du.blueyonder.co.uk [62.30.254.14]
5 16 ms 13 ms 20 ms 194.117.136.225
6 16 ms 15 ms 29 ms 194.117.136.174
7 * 15 ms 19 ms ge-2-0-7.lon11.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.37]
8 15 ms 25 ms 16 ms multiplay-gw-2.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.86]
9 14 ms 17 ms 35 ms po0-1-650-cr1.sovlon.as35028.net [85.236.110.6]
10 14 ms 29 ms 31 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

Trace complete.


And one from my MPUK connection at home (Willenhall) These locations are 10mins away from each other.

Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.2.1
2 20 ms 21 ms 20 ms gi0-3-651-ar0.ixnlon.as35028.net [85.236.110.10]
3 20 ms 23 ms 20 ms po0-1-651-cr.ixnlon.as35028.net [85.236.110.11]
4 20 ms 20 ms 20 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

Trace complete.

EDIT: Here is one from my moms house which is blueyonder and across the road from my home (dont think your gonna get much closer than that)

Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.UK [85.236.96.22]
Over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms <1 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
2 9 ms 24 ms 9 ms 10.21.192.1
3 22 ms 10 ms 19 ms s02-ubr02-ba.blueyonder.co.UK [62.30.254.129]
4 17 ms 25 ms 26 ms PC-62-30-254-53-du.blueyonder.co.UK [62.30.254.5
3]
5 17 ms 24 ms 15 ms PC-62-30-254-2-du.blueyonder.co.UK [62.30.254.2]
6 24 ms 21 ms 26 ms 194.117.136.134
7 14 ms 21 ms 13 ms 194.117.136.174
8 17 ms 21 ms 25 ms GE-2-0-7.lon11.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.37]
9 17 ms 33 ms 20 ms multiplay-gw-2.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.86]
10 18 ms 21 ms 17 ms po0-1-651-cr.ixnlon.as35028.net [85.236.110.11]
11 27 ms 21 ms 22 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

Trace complete.

I really do hope you appreciate the effort it took to get my mom todo a tracert over msn, here is a log of the conversation...
http://www.wsad.co.uk/msn_log.txt
I can't get that bit of my life back!

[Dentist]

Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms
2 30 ms 39 ms 31 ms anchor-hg-4-l100.router.demon.net [194.159.161.35]
3 30 ms 33 ms 32 ms anchor-access-3-v154.router.demon.net [194.159.161.129]
4 * 30 ms 30 ms anchor-inside-4-g2-0-2.router.demon.net [194.159.161.78]
5 32 ms 31 ms 29 ms anchor-border-1-g1-0-0.router.demon.net [194.70.98.6]
6 31 ms 31 ms 31 ms linx1.multiplay.co.uk [195.66.224.224]
7 33 ms 29 ms 30 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

From the middle of nowhere.

[rick_2k]

Thought i should just throw in my one too.

Essex Blueyonder 10mbit


Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 10.0.0.1
2 10 ms 8 ms 10 ms 10.12.0.1
3 25 ms 12 ms 28 ms 195.188.52.2
4 11 ms 28 ms 10 ms pc-62-30-243-90-bn.blueyonder.co.uk [62.30.243.90]
5 9 ms 15 ms 9 ms ge-2-0-7.lon11.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.37]
6 29 ms 15 ms 10 ms multiplay-gw-2.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.86]
7 13 ms 24 ms 9 ms po0-1-651-cr.ixnlon.as35028.net [85.236.110.11]
8 10 ms 10 ms 16 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

Trace complete.

[jugster]

OK told ya I was a know nothing, how do I set my pix to allow me to trace route? Its a 515e . I have allowed full IP. But im guessing and I really mean guessing it something to do with ICPM ? :)

[kandy]

OK told ya I was a know nothing, how do I set my pix to allow me to trace route? Its a 515e . I have allowed full IP. But im guessing and I really mean guessing it something to do with ICPM ? :)

access-list allow_icmp permit icmp any any
access-group allow_icmp in interface inside
access-group allow_icmp in interface outside
access-group allow_icmp in interface dmz

pretty sure theres a shorter way of doing it to, can't remember of the top of my head tho.

IP is a different protocol to ICMP hence why allowing 'full IP' tells you to fo.

[dirtyginge]

Hi All
Well for all of you who would like to compare , for instance, different types of broadband from BT for instance, here is a little help...

I have had installed in my house, a second broadband line for work, as i will be running several redundancy servers for one of our companies.....installed by one of the better Broadband companies who still care about customers
both lines have the same attenuation, the same signal to noise ratio's and the same ( give or take a few percent at times) sync rates...all on the same wired network, just different ip ranges....im 6.5 km from the exchange , so my download rates dont get above 2mb\s

this morning i download a driver from www.tweaksrus.com, which always have a good download rate

from multiplay, download rate is about 176Kb/s
change ip
same download from the other company 58Kb/s
change ip back to multiplay network 167Kbs
etc etc.....

so technical difference, forgetting about ping, goes to show that during peak times, how much other companies really "mess with your connection" with regards to contention, traffic shaping..and may other forms of limitation

Thats just the technical difference......forgetting about the fact that in all of my dealings with multiplay, i have been treated more like a member of the family than a customer, and that they are always willing to help, regardless of how difficult BT wish to be

With regards to Cable , my friend is on Blueyonder and has been for many years..he is a domestic engineer ( READ Unemployed gaming all day )....and even with his line, we are seeing peak traffic drop from the 10Mb line he used to have all day ( which i was really impressed with 1-2 years ago), down to 2-4 sometimes...gaming is getting lots of lag, disconnection from servers etc...with the addition of caps to most BT lines, the 24/7 downloaders are all diving onto cable networks, which im sure most people will agree, have a limit to traffic like all networks....it is slowly deteriorating on cable networks.....i think only a matter of time if not already before major shaping / limitations are applied there...


I hope this helps some of you who wish to move isp's metc make an informed decision as to where you would like to be............

[sh0ckwave]

access-list allow_icmp permit icmp any any
access-group allow_icmp in interface inside
access-group allow_icmp in interface outside
access-group allow_icmp in interface dmz

pretty sure theres a shorter way of doing it to, can't remember of the top of my head tho.

IP is a different protocol to ICMP hence why allowing 'full IP' tells you to fo.

icmp permit any outside
[that allows pings to the pix interface, not the hosts behind the pix]


From experience "ip" in the context of a pix access list will allow tcp,udp and icmp. (and esp/ipsec etc)

You might have had only half the access list:
Traceroute is made up of 2 parts, for windows its icmp echo-request outbound and icmp unreachables or time exceeded back in (source will be the routers along the way, not your final destination). For unix its outbound udp, usually random port over about 33000 and the same icmps back in.
So if you allow any ip outbound, you still wont see the replies unless you allow the icmp with the access lists back in.

[dj4site]

As the director of an ISP I think I should share my 2 cents worth.

Bandwidth, Contention, Latency, Jitter and Routing are all important. It's no good having one or two that are ok, because the others will soon degrade your connection if not optimised.

What most people fail to understand is that peer2peer and optimal gaming performance are mutualy exclusive. The internet structure itself was never designed to allow hundreds of thousands of people to download thousands of gigabytes simultaneously. There is simply not enough capacity.

The only reason it works at all is because of contention and traffic shaping.

But problems with bandwidth, contention, latency etc are about 80% likely to be caused by peer2peer traffic. Because thats the average overhead on the internet these days for p2p! Without it there would be far fewer problems in the first palce.

I keep reading stuff from people who say things like- "yeah, my gaming was fantastic on my 1Mbs connection, but now it just sucks" The simple reason being that not many people downloaded DVD's on 1Mbs because it could take a week! But now they have 4/8/24Mbs it changes everything. Usually for the worse.

Is that the fault of the ISP's? or the people who dont realise that their p2p activity just swamps the internet with junk and degrades the performance of everything else.. including games..?

BTW- If I was looking for an ISP for gaming the very last thing I would do is sign up for a service offering 'unlimited downloads' because thats where the heaviest concentration of peer2peer downloaders is likely to be! Which means up to 80% of their resources will be devoted to serving them. Not gaming.

I see lots of ISP's trying to jump on the 'we are a gaming ISP' bandwaggon. I wont mention any names because most of them just make me laugh. Mainly because they offer 'unlimited downloads' with a contention ratio of 50:1 and only 256 or 400k upload.

Which in truth is about as far from the ideal gaming ISP as it's possible to be.

This is what I have by comparison-

Up to 8mbs down, 800k up, 20:1 contention with port prioritisation for gaming all the way to the internet backbone. It costs £24.99

BUT and it's a big but , it only has a 10Gb peer2peer download limit. After that it get restricted to 100k or so.

As I was trying to point out earlier, you can either have fantastic gaming OR huge peer2peer downloads. Not both.

I guess it depends on your individual priorities? But from personal experience I find it far more fun to play awesome games than to wait for a crappy copy of a movie I will probably never watch.

But hey, it's your choice.

[Shazz]

So which ISP is this then?

and...

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Rich Shirley>tracert core1.multiplay.co.uk

Tracing route to core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 22 ms 24 ms 24 ms l1.ar21.gs1.dsl.pipex.net [195.112.5.30]
3 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms ge-2-1-1.cr01.gs1.dsl.pipex.net [62.241.161.30]

4 22 ms 23 ms 22 ms ae0-0.cr02.gs1.dsl.pipex.net [62.241.161.210]
5 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms pc9.cr05.tn5.bb.pipex.net [62.72.137.13]
6 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms v3953.cr05.hx2.bb.pipex.net [62.72.137.30]
7 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms po-2-477-cr0.tch.datahop.it [62.72.139.14]
8 23 ms 35 ms 22 ms 195.72.129.14
9 25 ms 23 ms 22 ms www1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22]

Trace complete.

C:\Documents and Settings\Rich Shirley>


Nildram ftl :P, i get about 4 hops from my uni net connection to mpuk :/


and it looks like our "ISP director" is the tard who started this thread -_-

[Anim]

Imo, 10gb is probably a little low, even for your "pure" gamers. When you take in to consideration not just the game, but 90% of the time voice comms, along with general browsing, maybe some radio, it all adds up :/

Another question is, why allow up to 8mb when if they used that speed for any real period of time they would use up their cap after the first week with ease. Surely that will just lead to disgruntled customers, just i wouldnt consider 10gb a month to be "huge" for total bandwidth used.

[GeeDee]

Bandwidth, Contention, Latency, Jitter and Routing are all important. It's no good having one or two that are ok, because the others will soon degrade your connection if not optimised.

Well, yes. (Except for Jitter, that's hardly a networking term now is it - and latency is (one of the) products of contention, at least when you're talking about DSL). A network connection with 0 bandwidth isn't really much of a connection is it. Equally for one with no routing anywhere. However you don't need masses of bandwidth for gaming so your statement is a little pointless. You do need bandwidth; but you don't need 'optimised' bandwidth.

What most people fail to understand is that peer2peer and optimal gaming performance are mutualy exclusive. The internet structure itself was never designed to allow hundreds of thousands of people to download thousands of gigabytes simultaneously. There is simply not enough capacity.

The internet isn't the problem for ISPs today. There's plenty of spare capacity for people to do whatever they want with their 8m/bit lines and (in comparison) additional transit is cheap and becoming a member of various exchange points, private peers etc etc can bring that cost right down even more. The problem for ISPs is the massive cost of the bandwidth you buy from BT Wholesale which gets peoples data from their houses onto your network. These are the data paths which end up being 'managed' to try and keep the network usable even whilst the link is at 100% utilisation.

But problems with bandwidth, contention, latency etc are about 80% likely to be caused by peer2peer traffic. Because thats the average overhead on the internet these days for p2p! Without it there would be far fewer problems in the first palce.

Yes, but not for the reasons you seem to be suggesting.

I keep reading stuff from people who say things like- "yeah, my gaming was fantastic on my 1Mbs connection, but now it just sucks" The simple reason being that not many people downloaded DVD's on 1Mbs because it could take a week! But now they have 4/8/24Mbs it changes everything. Usually for the worse.

Well, yes. Each user can pull down more data, faster than previously now - but the cost per megabit of traffic to the ISP has remained the same. The end result is over-congested BT Central connections. Hence, the use of traffic management to throttle back the biggest bandwidth usage.

Is that the fault of the ISP's? or the people who dont realise that their p2p activity just swamps the internet with junk and degrades the performance of everything else.. including games..?

It's not the internet, it's the BTW broadband network. When done properly, traffic management does make gaming work; but it's a constant cat and mouse game for ISPs. P2P traffic can masquerade as pretty much anything now; so some pretty blanket rules are often put in place to try and catch it. Games can often look like P2P (lots of small packets on high port ranges) and so doesn't get identified correctly.

I see lots of ISP's trying to jump on the 'we are a gaming ISP' bandwaggon. I wont mention any names because most of them just make me laugh. Mainly because they offer 'unlimited downloads' with a contention ratio of 50:1 and only 256 or 400k upload.

No games struggle with a 256k upstream. At all. I can't think of a single game that requires anything over 1m/bit downstream either.

This is what I have by comparison-

Up to 8mbs down, 800k up, 20:1 contention with port prioritisation for gaming all the way to the internet backbone. It costs £24.99

No you don't. IP Max Premium has no published contention, it simply gives the additional upstream over IP Max. IP Max is also very unsuitable for gamers a lot of the time. Especially for users with longer lines, the network seems to prefer a little more bandwidth over connection stability. Moreover, unless set to Off (per line) BTw will automatically enable interleaving on an IP Max connection which is experiencing poor stability / performance. This increases latency. This is bad for gamers. Hence many heavy gamers requesting a regrade back to the original IP Stream products (which almost always fixes their problems).

Additionall, see my earlier comment on traffic prioritisation. Plus - every ISP I can think of that has implemented traffic management caters for gamers. Some have varying levels of success; but nobody is ignoring the issue.

Thanks for posting. :)

[dj4site]

However you don't need masses of bandwidth for gaming so your statement is a little pointless. You do need bandwidth; but you don't need 'optimised' bandwidth.

I should prehaps point out that our service is focused on xbox live play. So upload bandwidth is actually crucial to us. Because unlike your server based games we have to cater for users who wish to host the games themselves. It also means we can devote all our efforts into optimising the data path for xbox live only, not WoW, BF, etc etc.

The internet isn't the problem for ISPs today. There's plenty of spare capacity for people to do whatever they want with their 8m/bit lines and (in comparison) additional transit is cheap and becoming a member of various exchange points, private peers etc etc can bring that cost right down even more. The problem for ISPs is the massive cost of the bandwidth you buy from BT Wholesale which gets peoples data from their houses onto your network. These are the data paths which end up being 'managed' to try and keep the network usable even whilst the link is at 100% utilisation.

Which is why I look forward to BT dropping its wholesale prices shortly. It should allow us to offer xbox gamers an even better deal.

Yes, but not for the reasons you seem to be suggesting.

I think I suggested that the internet is crowded with peer2peer traffic? And from a transit point of view would be a lot better off without it clogging everything up. Maybe I'm wrong?

Well, yes. Each user can pull down more data, faster than previously now - but the cost per megabit of traffic to the ISP has remained the same. The end result is over-congested BT Central connections. Hence, the use of traffic management to throttle back the biggest bandwidth usage.

I agree. But deep scanning and intelligent packet filtering can be used for far more than just peer2peer throttling.

It's not the internet, it's the BTW broadband network. When done properly, traffic management does make gaming work; but it's a constant cat and mouse game for ISPs. P2P traffic can masquerade as pretty much anything now; so some pretty blanket rules are often put in place to try and catch it. Games can often look like P2P (lots of small packets on high port ranges) and so doesn't get identified correctly.

I sympathise, truly I do. When we looked into prehaps moving towards the PC gamer market it quickly became clear that it is fraught with problems. Luckily by only having to cater for xbox live our scanning and filtering is much less complicated.

No games struggle with a 256k upstream. At all. I can't think of a single game that requires anything over 1m/bit downstream either.

Trust me, 16 player deathmatch games on xbox live do struggle on 256K upstream. But I agree on a PC remote server based game it should be enough. You only have to support one connection, we support 16+. In fact mine works easily with up to 24 players. Horses for courses, as they say.

No you don't. IP Max Premium has no published contention, it simply gives the additional upstream over IP Max. IP Max is also very unsuitable for gamers a lot of the time. Especially for users with longer lines, the network seems to prefer a little more bandwidth over connection stability. Moreover, unless set to Off (per line) BTw will automatically enable interleaving on an IP Max connection which is experiencing poor stability / performance. This increases latency. This is bad for gamers. Hence many heavy gamers requesting a regrade back to the original IP Stream products (which almost always fixes their problems).

You are correct. I was using the old terminology because it seems to be more easily understood, prehaps for historical reasons? However I will rectify. We actually have a 200% priority advantage over standard BT Max. So even when both are heavily loaded we get a 200% better chance of getting our packets through on time. And as standard we allways use fastpath. We will only switch to interleaved if asked to by the customer. They might loose a few hundred killobits of outright bandwidth but the advantages outweigh it for all our users so far.

Additionall, see my earlier comment on traffic prioritisation. Plus - every ISP I can think of that has implemented traffic management caters for gamers. Some have varying levels of success; but nobody is ignoring the issue.

I dont think I implied anyone was ignoring the issue? I was trying to defend ISP's in general from people who want endless bandwidth for peer2peer traffic. There is no such thing as a free lunch and that applies double to 'unlimited downloads'.

Thanks for posting.

You are entirely welcome.

[tbl]

Yes; that's when an ISP has their own equipment located in your local telephone exchange and therefore has no need for a BT Central. Apparently though the actual costs of backhauling data even under LLU are not all that much lower than letting BT do it for you (most LLU ISPs are still paying BT lots of money to effectively link the LLU kit in the exchanges to the ISPs networks elsewhere anyway) - so we can probably see limitations being applied even to LLU further down the line, when they start seeing contention on these networks too. :)

Hurrah, someone's who's finally hit the nail on the head!
People incorrectly think that the reason there are little or no caps on LLU services are because the LLU providers backhaul their own traffic thus saving muchos cost versus a BT Central.

In actual fact, as GeeDee points out; most LLU providers still pay BT to use their transmission network to get to the nearest span off point to the LLU provider's network.
Now, this span connection is much cheaper than a BT Central - but factor in the cost of the LLU kit and associated costs, and the savings are very slim versus a 'simple' BT Central.

The only reason there are unlimited LLU providers at the moment are because these services aren't enormously busy when compared to the 'traditional' BT Central served ISPs.
Thus they have bandwith so spare and can offer an unlimited service, for the time being.

Remember, in the days circa 2001-2003ish we were ALL on unlimited services (albeit at reduced maximum speeds), and we pretty much had the internet to ourselves in the UK as the takeup of broadband was still in it's infancy.
This is comparable to the LLU situation now, and is the reason why Ofcom won't allow BT to reduce the BT Central prices.

Once the LLU market matures (which it will in the next 18 months or so), we'll hopefully see Ofcom relaxing the price controls on BT, and we may see a return to competitive pricing ALONG with decent service; as the two are mutually exclusive at the moment.

[Sheppard]

Yet again another invalid statement 24Mb is currently the fastest Broadband solution and Ooo guess what its DSL based :P

NTL 20, 50 and 100mb trials are currently the fastest broadband solution and Ooo guess what its cable based.

[bvark]

In actual fact, as GeeDee points out; most LLU providers still pay BT to use their transmission network to get to the nearest span off point to the LLU provider's network.


A 1000M BT WES circuit (while distance dependant) costs you perhaps £2500/month for an 'average' 10km span. That's £2.50/Mbit/month. Your regional backhaul network might run to another £5/Mbit/month.

A BT Central costs you £200/Mbit/month (assuming full 622M centrals).

There is a gigantic saving available if you're playing a bandwidth game, but the average and setup costs imply LLU providers can't be profitable under 500-750 subs/exchange.

Once the LLU market matures (which it will in the next 18 months or so), we'll hopefully see Ofcom relaxing the price controls on BT, and we may see a return to competitive pricing ALONG with decent service; as the two are mutually exclusive at the moment.

BT have published what they intend to do with IPStream pricing once the 1.5m LLU subs mark is reached (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/ioi/bbpricing/). This is expected to be April (http://www.offta.org.uk/).

The differences are substantial, but the changes concentrate on the per subscriber line costs, not on the bandwidth costs. I wouldn't expect this to fundamentally reshape the nature of the consumer offers for UK Broadband lines.

[brightside]

NTL 20, 50 and 100mb trials are currently the fastest broadband solution and Ooo guess what its cable based.

I put the word that needs emphasis in bold. Admittedly cable has more bandwidth available to it, but it is not currently available to order. Your just lucky whether you live in an area thats trialing it :)

[Boffykins]

bvark, would you be so kind as to give us a quick "executive summary" of those letters from BT? ie what the average cost per end user is at the moment, and what they will be post-April(ish)?

[Demondan]

I put the word that needs emphasis in bold. Admittedly cable has more bandwidth available to it, but it is not currently available to order. Your just lucky whether you live in an area thats trialing it :)

It's gonna happen though eventaully as most of the other speeds have been through trils....and much more available unlike the closest to an exchange which most of the time you rely for BT speeds.

[bvark]

bvark, would you be so kind as to give us a quick "executive summary" of those letters from BT? ie what the average cost per end user is at the moment, and what they will be post-April(ish)?

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/2876-more-on-bt-wholesale-price-cuts.html

[dj4site]

Imo, 10gb is probably a little low, even for your "pure" gamers. When you take in to consideration not just the game, but 90% of the time voice comms, along with general browsing, maybe some radio, it all adds up :/

Another question is, why allow up to 8mb when if they used that speed for any real period of time they would use up their cap after the first week with ease. Surely that will just lead to disgruntled customers, just i wouldnt consider 10gb a month to be "huge" for total bandwidth used.

It's a 10Gb limit for P2P. If you play xbox live and actually manage to use more than 10Gb in a month we dont mind. We also dont mind people downloading demos etc from the marketplace, or a bit of radio etc. But we DO detect and throttle peer2peer.

btw- We did some tests and its virtually impossible to use more that 10Gb a month just playing on xbox live. Without sleeping that is!

What we are trying to prevent is the situation that one ISP had last year in which his main traffic management router fell over because about 300 people were using over 125,000 virtual ports! That's what unlimited peer2peer causes.

The reason for offering 8Mbs is simple. It was the only way we could get the increased upload bandwidth (up to 800k) that we needed for hosting xbox games properly.

When you say 'use up their cap after the first week' I assume you mean if they want to download endless p2p ?

If they want to do that then they should go somewhere else. It screws up gaming for everybody so we dont want them. Sorry.

Our purpose is plain and simple.. to deliver the best possible connection for xbox live play. If ,in order to provide that, it means our users have to follow some simple rules, like not downloading everything under the sun, then so be it.

It's up to them at the end of the day.