Careers advice.

[TelexStar]

There seem to be a lot of careers advice threads popping up here recently so I thought, I'd try my luck. :)

Basically, I'm stuck in a sh!tty 2nd line support role at the moment with a crappy salary and not much hope of it jumping up within this company.I've been thinking about specialising in an area of IT and one possible direction is that of .net development.

There is a company called ICS (International Computer Systems - http://www.icslondon.com/) that are looking for people to take on with little/no programming experience with a view of training them up in .net (VB, ASP, C#)

The catch? Well, the training period will be about 6 months with no salary and at the end of which they guarantee an MCSD qualification and a job as a junior developer (20-25 k). They will pay for most of the training but I will be required to "contribute" monetarily in part (the details of which I am not certain...yet).

I'm going in for an interview next week to confirm some the details but I wouldn't mind getting some peoples thoughts. Has anyone heard of this company? Is this a normal practice? And has anyone else done anything like this before? Obviously one of the first things I will be making sure is that I get the guarantee of a job in writing but depending on how much they expect me to contribute towards the courses I can't imagine a company investing in training someone up and then not employ them afterwards.

This will be somewhat of a life changing move for me so your thoughts and experience would be greatly appreciated. :)

[R4mbo]

wheres the link it says about this? i cant see it on the site,

[TelexStar]

It's not on the site. It was an advert in a magazine that a friend of mine called me about.

[Blind]

I'd check the placement after work - is it with reputable company or some 3rd rate place.


I'd also check what situation is if training company goes tits up. Do you have part qualifications - while job at end still be there.

[TelexStar]

From what I can tell, they're not a specific training company. They have in house developers and provide software/database solutions to client accounts. The job would be working in one of their London offices.

[Er00]

Sounds interesting, I say just go along and try and find out as much as you can, if there's no catch other than not being paid for six months then go for it, you're clearly not happy in the job you've got atm :)

[/|/|umm-R@]

On the off chance - you ever fancied getting into recruitment??.. my job is to place people INTO the recruitment industry - if interested let us know, maybe able to help... if of no use then no worries :)

[TelexStar]

Thanks for the offer but I really want to progress my IT career. Also, OTE based jobs just don't suit me.

Thanks again though :)

[/|/|umm-R@]

no worries buddy, although IT recruitment is slowly on its way up again now! woo..

Good luck any-hoo

[kjdare]

think very carefully about signing up to icslondon. I already have and I am feeling ripped off.... for starters, it will take more than six months. The actual schedule works like this: one month in the classroom - (tutor quality poor), then study leave and you given some books to teach yourself from (costing about £150 in themselves) from there you book your own exam (you have to pass three and also complete a project).

the course book that I am currently working through has various extremely tedious errors in it, apart from the misprints (really useless for trying to learn code from!) there is also vast chunks of code missing from the exercises that you are supposed to work through. This is very longwinded and boring, having first to work out the publishers mistakes - it's as if nobody proof read it, BEFORE you can really start to learn.

After having completed three exams (which will take at least a month a piece to prepare for - unless you already have good experience of working with asp.net) you then go back into the classroom for a further month, followed by more study leave and more exams, after passing two more exams you return for another month, then study leave then final exam. AFTER THAT they will take you on (without pay) for three months work experience.

No if you think all that is going to take six months, you live on another planet. Take my advice, go out and spend a couple of hundred on the books and teach yourself, and save yourself 5,800 quid.

[King-Kodiak]

I almost fell into this trap with icslondon when I moved down here to somerset

They rope you in with "No experience required, can earn £20K to begin with after training", but as kjdare has said, it takes ALOT longer then they say it will, and as you can see from his example (man, you have my sympathies), the "contribution" is ridiculous.

My advice would be leave them well alone, head back to college / uni and get a bursery / student loan, at least you have some kind of money coming in, unlike this scheme / scam (whichever you feel more applies)

[Drarok]

Yikes - harsh!

TBH I managed to crack the IT industry by going to a training course, but it was government subsidised somehow, and they paid 75% of travelling costs to go there and things. Like a college, but actually taught me something instead of tedious and useless ****. At the end of, I landed a job in support. Showed off my programming flair, stuck it out in that dodgy place for 3 years, went elsewhere with 3 years programming experience under my belt.
Winner.

[taichi]

All paid work absorbs and degrades the mind......

[Afty]

Originally posted by TelexStar
Is this a normal practice? Yes, these leeches exist in every industry which requires very specific skills.

They advertise in publications, radio etc. where people who are not in the industry will see the adverts. The standard pitch is this:

-] You don't need any skills!
-] Break into industry X right away (where industry X is perceived to be easy work and lots of money. Driving Tutors is a BIG one at the moment, they earn very little because the bottom has fallen out of the market, but 10-15 years ago they used to earn loads of money, so public perception is that way. It was the same with MCSEs and web design 5/7 years ago)
-] We train you! (they don't mention ALL the fees tacked one, fee after fee after fee, catch after catch)
-] It doesn't take long (it really does)
-] We guarantee a placement (some of these are only guaranteed for a few weeks of work, others are "shell" companies with no real work, setup to employ you for a pittance doing "research" work for just a month before going bust. They are funded by the money you pay up front, still leaving them with clear profit)
-] You could earn £Y (where Y is the amount earned by someone PROPERLY educated, trained with several years experience and contacts within the industry).

What they say is *legally* true, but don't believe a word of it, they are all bull**** - Ask yourself this question : WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD THEY ADVERTISE FOR PEOPLE IF IT WAS SUCH A GOOD DEAL? People would be biting their hand off...
The answer is because they make their money from *YOU*, you are their profit center.

These schemes are sickening, and they pray on the naive and uninformed in a way which I find despicable - not to mention the fact they flood the industries concerned with unrequired underskilled newbies who lower the average wage for other more qualified entrants significantly. They encourage you take out loans or put the balance on credit cards because "you will earn it all back once you are earning a fortune in the industry".

Please, don't do this. If you want to get into this sort of industry, do it self-study while working another (part or full time) job. You will come out of it thousands (or perhaps tens of thousands) ahead in the long run, and with BETTER education as their courses are generally awful.

[TelexStar]

Yup, I went for the so called "interview" a couple of months back and decided it wasn't for me.

What set my alarm bells ringing was the fact that I felt like they were trying to *sell me* a position as opposed to *interviewing me* for a position. That and the 6K up front.

The whole thing just didn't feel right.

[wolfnet]

6K upfront ?

that mad i did my course for IT with www.nitlc.com and it was paid for by my company but for my course it was only £3-4k not completely sure and that was for A+,N+,MCSA,MCSE,CCNA and SQL server. So I think 6K for just MCSD is pretty high. And if you are looking at doing some sort of training give nitlc a ring they can explain more about getting a goverment grant for your course so you only start to pay for it in 2 years and hopefully by then you will have a few qualifications and a better paid job.

[Cheez]

The exams can be over a grand a pop, with training etc £6,000 doesnt seem too much, however their methods and priorities leave me somewhat suspicious of their motives.

[kjdare]

The exams themselves only cost about £30 to £40 quid. Where you getting a grand from?

The eventual qualification is actually MCP not MCSD

[Joey]

www.microsoft.com/mcp

you'll learn a lot more from teaching yourself from both the free online resources and obtaining copies of the software in question

i have qualified as an mcse messaging specialist on win2k and wsv03 just by reading up on things from the MS site and other sites, but more importantly by getting hold of a 180 day evaluation copy of windows server and setting up a domain on a couple of test machines at home. i've not been on any training courses, and (thankfully) my employer has paid for the exams except the exchange 2k resit. the exams are £130 a time, however the training courses are usually £1500 a time with each course aimed at a specific exam.

i would also be wary of any "boot camp" centres - these places basically spend a week teaching you how to pass the exams, you can come out as an mcse or mcad or whatever, but you'll come a cropper very quickly in the real world when your exchange server keels over for no apparent reason or when dfs replication randomly bins itself.

best bet is to play with things in your own time. if you can get your employer to pay for the exams only as part of a personal development plan then great - you'll find that most employers are quite obliging when you say "i don't want a training course, just the exams" since the exams are peanuts compared to training.

[Xilly]

Yeah I looked at these schemes a while back when I left college, they were clearly very dodgy so I avoided them.

This has already been suggested, but it was the method I used, I got a job within a software development company as a software tester, real entry level thing but they gave me a day every two weeks to study for exams, initially just one to become MCP, then eventually the rest required for MCSE. They payed for all the books, gave me time to study them, this coupled with doing some study in my own time made it relatively easy to pass the exams.
The company closed and I was made redundant about 3 weeks after completing my mcse, which was fantastic timing, so I used it to get into the job im in now, it's just pc and network management / support but it pays 19k, which is 10k more than I was on as a software tester.

I think you're definitely better off doing it this way if you can find somewhere that will help you, I got a fairly decent qualification for free essentially, whilst earning a wage at the same time for doing a fairly easy (yet mundane) job.

[sh0ckwave]

I fell into this trap of sorts after leaving uni with a company called Amraf... I lost a bit of money, and one of my friends lost a lot more (they signed up after the 'discount period' had run out).

I would echo the BEWARE! from everyone else :)

Exactly the same setup - they train you in N+, CCNA, MCP onto MCSE and will guarantee employment afterwards (for 3 months)

I got the N+ and if i remember i had an interview elsewhere one night while i was on the MCP course. I got that job and went back to do the CCNA but by then i knew more than the halfwit instructors they had left ! Soon after that they went bust, i've seen some people manage to get about 10 quid back from the receivers but it was an investment of about 2k back then.

[tiSSue]

mcs* :D :rolleyes:

[wolfnet]

Originally posted by kjdare
The exams themselves only cost about £30 to £40 quid. Where you getting a grand from?

The eventual qualification is actually MCP not MCSD

That is totally wrong

First each exam at current price is £88.

And the final qualification will be MCSD not MCP. You have to gain certain MCP qualifications to get a MCSD. Like for my MCSA i had to do 2 elective exams and 3 MCP's then to move upto to MCSE i had to do another 4 MCP's.

[kjdare]

Whatever, we were told the exams were about 30 to 40 apiece, but definately not a grand, like that other guy said, and anyways, we have to pay for those separately. AND Microsoft Certified Professional (MCP) is the eventual overall qualification that we are aiming for (MSCD is what I am working for now!).

NOT A COMPLETE WALLY .... although currently very ripped off.

[Murray-Mint]

The courses at the National IT Learning Centre someone linked to look very interesting. the MCSE course is REALLY tempting to me.

[Inferno]

Joey speaks truth TBH, im just starting off A+ now and then hoping to go onto MCSE or MCP (5 or something add up to an MCSE i beleive),

But ive now got about a years knowledge of Exchange and server 2003 and ive been given by my company all MS software to play with at home, best way is practical learning i think.

[Xilly]

You only need to pass one of the exams to be an MCP.

Easiest one is installing implementing and configuring windows xp Pro. Most people on this board could pass that and therefore be an MCP.

[Chicane]

heh

you got a link to that?

[wolfnet]

Dont know about that i found the 70-290 (implementing server 2003) to be alot easier than 70-270 (implementing XP pro) but think it might have been because of being used to how microsoft word the questions. But as for most people on here passing it i wouldnt be sure. Not saying people on here dont know what they doing but as most are users that mainly use it at home some of the stuff they would ask would have never been used. I know when i was studying for it i had only just got XP so it was all new but even now there are things they asked in the exam that i have still never used.

And kjdare dont keep saying that the MCP is the final qualification as this is wrong you get an MCP for every microsoft exam you pass but you have to pass around 5 MCP's yo get the MCSD as it shows here

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcsd/requirementsdotnet.asp

And murraymint i did my course with them and the support is great and the tutors do know what they are talking about. you should ring them and get them to send you an info pack just to have a look.