Locked in Paradise

[Tsung]

Interesting program on BBC Website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/4058833.stm). It's basically a military detention school for children. Parents can sign their child up, and then well this happens... (to quote a former attendee)..

"Three strangers - a lady and two big men - came into my house and sat me down on the sofa," Shannon told me.
"They said I was going to Jamaica and they handcuffed me and said I could co-operate or they were going to throw me over their shoulder. I was screaming for my mom because I had no clue what was going on. I was very scared," she said.
When I asked Shannon's mother Jayne why she felt the need to send her daughter to a school reputed for its harsh treatment of pupils, she simply said: "Desperate parents do desperate things."

Hard love I know, but maybe thats what we are lacking in this country?. We have detention centers for young criminals by then its too late. Maybe we should have some schooling options for the parents who do have problems controlling their children?. I'm all for the idea of military style schools in the UK.

Please Discuss?

Program on BBC2 Tonight at 7.30pm for more information...

[Afty]

I'm all for the idea of 12-24 months of National Service after GCSEs for everyone with exceptions only on medical grounds, but that story horrified me.

The girl in focus was there because she was "drinking alcohol, smoking weed and her school grades were dropping". Well christ, that sounds very similar to some of my teenage years. But here I am today, no boot camp needed, still alive at twenty five and running my own business.

Taking vulnerable teenagers and placing them into environments - which have been proven time and time again to incite abuse - while "disciplining" them military style is IMO not healthy at all. It merely serves to make bad parenting more acceptable, and shift the responsibility for nurturing decent children further away from the parents.

"ARE YOUR KIDS BAD? IT COULDNT BE THAT YOU'RE A FERKIN DIRE PARENT, NO - ITS THEIR FAULT, SO SEND EM TO BE ABUSED AND TOLD TO LIE ON THE FLOOR FOR 72 HOURS STRAIGHT WITH ONLY BREAD AND WATER. THAT WILL TURN THEM INTO RESPONSIBLE, PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS FAR BETTER THAN DISCUSSION, EDUCATION AND LOVE EVER COULD. DO IT NOW, ONLY £25,000 A YEAR!!!! REMEMBER, IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT, BUT YOU CAN STILL MAKE THE GUILT GO AWAY FOR TWENTY FIVE G'S A YEAR"

Criminalising adolescence is awful - many people need to go through that rebellious stage and come out the other side to grow as a person. Denying them that simply makes them into an obedient drone, all set to spend adulthood wasting their lives away as a fleshbag working some dross underpaid job for someone with actual spine.

[Elbonio]

im all for young offenders (convitced offenders not "problem children") being enrolled into boot camp

straighten them out in the army

as for teenagers who are unruly similar style schools could proove useful, though i disagree with some of the methods in the article - the OP for example and handcuffing them... surely that's not legal?

[Afty]

Originally posted by Elbonio
as for teenagers who are unruly similar style schools could proove useful, though i disagree with some of the methods in the article - the OP for example and handcuffing them... surely that's not legal? I imagine in many countries it would count as assault and kidnapping - I'm not sure about US Laws.

[Tsung]

$25,000 is not a cheap option for the parents, infact, I doubt it's an easy decision for the parents to make. The whole removal of the child is questionable legal, but interesting, it's removing the child from their "safe, comfit zone". I reckon it could be just a tramatic for the parents when this actually happens (I mean they are not going to see or speak to their child for a year either). You could argue the parent is paying to get rid of their child, or they might be paying to save their child? depends on individual situations.
Afty you blame the parent and bad parenting, but last time I checked there isn't a manual on good parenting. There is books and advice available, but what if you try that and it dont work?. Infact I'm sure there are families out there who have two (or more children), where one is a right monster, the other an angel. What happens in these situations? who's to blame then?
When a child does consistantly get into trouble, what can a parent do?, do they just try their best until the child ends up in prison, or dead somewhere?. Maybe a radical option is the only option?

[Mingtea]

and comming out of this a child will have what view of thier parents?

[TheGuyver]

tbh afty i would like to hear from what grounds you are able to comment from? (unless theres a family you have not told me about lol) Seeing it happen and BEING there are 2 different things btw.

yes the generalisation is that bad kids normally come from bad / improper parenting. Simple things like swearing in front of your kids is wrong, ok the odd slip is sometimes unavoidable but saying something along the lines of "Gary get your F***ING arse up here NOW!" is not acceptable. (long story)

There is a simple proverb, "Scum Breeds Scum" it takes a very strong person or set of parents to break that circle.

Becci my 1st, is fine. nps with her at all yes sometimes shes cheaky and she shows off, so do most 6/7 year olds.

jess on the other hand is a cow bag, and shes not even 2. im dreading the "teenage" years.

Sometimes the end justifies the means, however i hope these places are responsible enough to see "bad parenting" from "problem children". Tirets Syndrome for example, i fail to see how a child who swears without it being thier fault the fault of the parent either. Where do kids like that fit into your generalisation afty? (note nothing personal, normally your posts are very well thought out and well contructed, i just felt this one wasnt :P )

Mingtea: I belive it was Henry Wrinkler who said something very profound (he played the charecter of Fonze in happy days) "The day i realised my dad was right all along, was the day i realised i had a son who thought i was wrong"

i didnt realise what my parents felt/thought etc until i was a dad. if you are at the point when you are willing to send your kid away for a year, then you must be desperate or not wanting them in the 1st place.

[Mu5icMan]

I agree with afty that all students should do their term in the Army, lucky for me i have a medical condition effecting my spine.

[Afty]

Originally posted by TheGuyver
Tirets Syndrome for example, i fail to see how a child who swears without it being thier fault the fault of the parent either. Where do kids like that fit into your generalisation afty? (note nothing personal, normally your posts are very well thought out and well contructed, i just felt this one wasnt :P ) I'm not quite sure I follow your query/point... occasionally there are some children who genuinely have special needs - those who have mental disorders that require a good psychiatrist (note : I'm of the opinion that most unruly do NOT have a "mental problem" - that sort of thinking leads to schools full of kids on Ritalin) and need special help which is almost certainly not available from their parents or immediate family.

The rest of the "problem kids" may be a pain for their parents, may be doing things they are "not supposed to" but many of them will come out of the other side of this stuff a better person for it, with a more rounded and experienced character - able to relate to others and eventually their own children accurately and with an understanding of what is involved.

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a middle class family, but also fortunate enough to grow up in towns which were quite deprived. With a fairly large sample set (the scores of kids I know, from "both sides of the track" I can say that there is a *TREMENDOUSLY CLOSE* correlation between how the parents raise their children and how they "turn out" when they reach their teens.
-] Kids with parents who were patient, loving, guided them and explained things, helped them with school work and set an example (do as I do, not as I say) tended to work out alright. Many had "brushes" with authority in their time, but the vast majority have really gone on to lead worthwhile lives.
-] The kids whose parents treated them like ****, swore at them frequently, refused to help with schoolwork, disrespected the school and others, and generally lowered their kids self-worth. These are the kids who now have problems.

While there are, as noted, exceptions to those "rules" - the vast majority have conformed. I am absolutely dead-set against *ANYTHING* that deflects responsibility for parenting and bringing up children away from the parents - we have enough problems already.

Re: talking about your own kids and one being harder than the other - I wouldn't want to go into details on the forums but just a few points...
1] Their environment outside the home is also important to their growth, and often changes from sibling to sibling.
2] Parents often use the "benefit of their experience" on 2nd and subsequent kids without realising it. I know *FOR A FACT* my mother is, in some respects, treating my brother (13) significantly differently to the way I was treated at that age - but she doesn't even realise it until I point it out... It's really hard when you're on the inside to notice differences.
3] Some people are just naturally different... being obstinate or stubborn is not always a bad thing, and I know many older people mistake these attributes for other, worse ones, in children. :)

[KingDaveRa]

Typical American attitude. The kid has a problem so you throw money at it either by sending them to a psychiatrist or bundling them off to camp.

Hmm.

[Ryvita]

Hmm. Just skimmed this.

Random first thought.

Is this people paying to send their own children to prison for a period?

If so, would it not be cheaper to just get them arrested?

?

Odd.

Ryv

[Aerodynamic]

its sick in my opinion, bein a little **** is all part of growin up and if a child has society forced on them in heavy doses its gona mess their brains up

[GeeDee]

I fail to see the logic behind providing a solution to a "child doesn't conform to the little box you have to fit in to, in order to make it happily thorugh mainstream education" being to send them off to an establishment that forces you to fit into an even smaller box.

Thats just going to genrate people unhappy with life and unhappy with themselves.

Can I just put this down to a ricidulous American way of thinking?

[Steadders]

watching the show now, looks pretty bad so far tbh

[GeeDee]

After watching that, i'm just at a loss as to what goes on inside the head of many americans.

I'm not saying that they're all brain dead idiots or whatever, but if people tried to sell that kind of place to parents in any other part of the world; well it just wouldn't happen.

I don't understand the mentality behind it. What is FORCING a child to fit into a pre-defined box possibly going to achieve. Is the only objective to hear the child say "I'm fine, i'll do what i'm told"? I think it's pretty obvious that if you put a person in a situation where they have no choice but to say what you tell them to, that they will comply. The fact that many Prisoners of War have signed totally false and extravegant confessions when 'persuaded' hard enough proves this.

Putting a child into that situation just makes me seethe. The only thing its going to do is to break them down as a person and force them to say what you want them to say. An education is supposed to encourage expressiveness and individuality, not harsh punishment if you fail to comply exactly. If anyone would like to disagree on that, i'd love to hear your reasons.

I just ... I just don't understand it. The parents of these kids must just have believed everything they were told with no questions asked. If someone said to you "we're going to take your child away, lock them up, not let them speak to you. Your only communication with them will be through us or censored by us. We'll not let you see them. We'll educate them parrot fashion and if they fail to perform we'll isolate them for weeks. Don't worry though, they'll come out a better person. Honest. P.S, it costs £20k +" would you be itching to sign on the dotted line? I'm sure as hell I wouldn't.

:/

[Tsung]

Did they come out a better person?

[GeeDee]

How do you measure that?

When the 'model student' was asked whether he was happy he said ".....Yes, now i'm leaving".

Another student committed suicide.

Whats a better person? Someone who does what they're told, doesn't question, doesn't think? How do you determine a better person? Especially when the people you're trying to measure have been effectively bullied and brainwashed into doing and saying what they have been told to say.

Go figure. :/

[Jobabob]

Send them some e-mails from japanese people looking to find a suicide partner

[TheGuyver]

Compulsory National Service.

What i ment was afty, sometimes it is not the parents fault. its very easy ( i know because ive done it) to look at a "bad child" and blame the parents. theres a world of difference from some 14year old "playing up" to a 14 yo stealing to a 14 yo breaking someone windows/criminal damage to a 14 yo killing someone.

its impossible to tar brush (but that happens anyways) Ok you could argue that its the basics that are often missing. Children that are sworn at, ill treated by thier parents often do the same to others in the "real world" they often dont bond with thier parents etc etc.

For these type of parents, to me, it only justifies the need for "selective breeding" or a "breeding licence".

I mentioned on MPUKadmins about this Mum who had to force feed her 2 year old daughter 5000 calories a day so she would be able to survive some sort of operation. she would buy 3 mcdonalds happy meals each time she went, the looks she got from other parents and people would have been too much to bare.

From the outside (myself included) people would have looked at this plump 2 year old, seeing this thing supposed to be her mother, her protector etc, forcing her to eat 3 happy meals with disgust and disdane. TBH probably calling social services too.

There is normally 2 sides to every story. and while i accept these are not the normal, carte blanche blaming bad parenting for every single bad kid is wrong. Sometimes, its the best they can do and others, because its the only way they know how.