i22 DoW Tournament - Your feedback and ideas are requested

[afty]

We're going to have a Dawn of War tournament at i22, I will be posting polls shortly asking for players votes on size, format and a number of other options.

In the meantime (approx. 1 week) this is your big chance to give me your *ideas* on what you would like to see in the tournament (rather than just voting on other peoples ideas).

Please, proselytise away.

[Zakalwe]

2 on 2

Capture and Hold
Critical Points
Annihilate

(just having it on Annihilate is dull)

[DaeMord]

deffo 2v2 imo, i prefer annihilate due to all old RTS's being basicly just that, but i dont mind if catch and hold and critical points are turned on

[Recoil]

1-1 and 2v2 tourne would be the best imo, most of the UT section is playing DOW big time :D and annhilate

[Flufball]

Also, standerd resources and whatnot are a must (Quick Start is rubbish :p: )

[jizzjunkie]

2v2, annihilate, standard settings :D

[Gunsmith]

i think the LoS bug should be fixed before any toury's are arranged

[GBrookshaw]

Relic have repeatedly stated on their forums that there is no LOS bug.
High ground and bits of buildings do not stop bullets and thats the way the game was coded in the first place

[Kharn]

2v2 and have Critical points/catch n hold

bored of 'Annihilate' type RTS games

other standard settings.

[Gunsmith]

Originally posted by GBrookshaw
Relic have repeatedly stated on their forums that there is no LOS bug.
High ground and bits of buildings do not stop bullets and thats the way the game was coded in the first place

heh, perhaps some screenies would change their minds :P

[Dam0_D_Dude]

Im up for a match with anyone.. add me on msn if u wanna..
Everythingsokwhenshesaround@hotmail.com
cheers people.
Oh gr8 game by the way

[andyf]

That's not a tournament idea or feedback ...

[Nikumba]

Originally posted by Gunsmith
i think the LoS bug should be fixed before any toury's are arranged

totally agree gunny, i mean if they can do it in generals why cant the relic boys do it?

To me the generals engine seems more advanced, you can rotate the map and the buildings :)

Nikumba

[afty]

Originally posted by Gunsmith
heh, perhaps some screenies would change their minds :P No no no no no. They've seen it in action, and it is intended behaviour.

[Zakalwe]

Originally posted by Nikumba
totally agree gunny, i mean if they can do it in generals why cant the relic boys do it?

To me the generals engine seems more advanced, you can rotate the map and the buildings :)

Nikumba

Hold ALT.

[Mingtea]

I guess some people feel they are too good to do the tutorial.

[Blood Sport]

why why, the first i series i miss since i start attending and they have a DOW torny. its just not fair:(

[afty]

I think it has something to do with the fact that Dawn of War wasn't available at any previous i-series :)

But seriously now, please try to keep comments in this thread on topic, we have a whole forum for fluff :)

[Blood Sport]

a suggestion even tho i'm not attending is

3 different tournament should the time be available

2 on 2 (Shows good team work)

Capture and Hold
Critical Points
Annihilate

and

1 on 1 (shows good indivdual players)

Annihilate
Capture and Hold


and for fun (just for the fun of watching hords of units rip each other apart)

2v2v2v2

Originally posted by afty
I think it has something to do with the fact that Dawn of War wasn't available at any previous i-series :)


yer that did cross my mind :)

[afty]

There will only be one main tourney, but if there is time I may run a just for fun 4v4 or similar with very different settings to the tourney game...

[Buffy]

this game is sounding better by the min, gess i will have to get a copy and join in.

[DjArcas]

Originally posted by Kharn
2v2 and have Critical points/catch n hold

bored of 'Annihilate' type RTS games

other standard settings.


Crit points lead to very quick games. I'd suggest also having Destroy HQ - this stops people amassing a huge army, then going out stomping with it - you have to think about offence AND defence. Agreed on not having it just Annihilate - let's move ON :)

I'd also vote for 3vs3, as there's some very very nice 3v3 maps in the game.

[DjArcas]

Originally posted by Kharn
2v2 and have Critical points/catch n hold

bored of 'Annihilate' type RTS games

other standard settings.


Crit points lead to very quick games. I'd suggest also having Destroy HQ - this stops people amassing a huge army, then going out stomping with it - you have to think about offence AND defence. Agreed on not having it just Annihilate - let's move ON :)

I'd also vote for 3vs3, as there's some very very nice 3v3 maps in the game.

[afty]

Thanks for the ideas guys, please keep them coming. I am definitely leaning towards having Victory Conditions other than (or in addition to) Annhilate to make this a little more interesting and different than most of the other RTS type tourneys.

[Zakalwe]

Economic VICTORY!

Actually I've no idea how that game-type plays, but it could be a laugh. Might be one to try out some time.

[Strych]

2v2

Cap and Hold, or anything that isn't just annihilate

Also I demand custom painted armies be permitted, as I have spent literally *minutes* preparing my army, the "Pink Punishers"

[jizzjunkie]

don't think anyone can object to custom army colours.

capture and hold is way too quick imo, maybe try area control or something, the one where you need 66% of all points on the map to win. makes things a little harder to lock down, as quite a few of the 1v1 maps have only one critical location, meaning the first person to get there often wins without much chance of the other player coming back.

[XomB]

2v2 and Annihilate imo. Those critical points just take the peeve ;/

[Zakalwe]

Further play suggests, no critical points, but keep the territorial victory.

[Badcrumble]

Duff have now moved to Dow as our main game (R.I.P generals), a 1v1 tourney would be a nice change and would be nice and fast, and maybee a 4v4 tourney for fun. Also criticle points lick balls :-)

[D0c]

yes for 2v2 Capture and Hold (strategy points) /Annihilate

[Njoroge]

What's the game mode that means BFC always win?

Let's play that one.

Also re: LOS, as far as I've heard it was because in the tabletop game only 1 unit needed LOS to shoot. They just kept the game rules the same.

[afty]

Originally posted by Njoroge
Also re: LOS, as far as I've heard it was because in the tabletop game only 1 unit needed LOS to shoot. They just kept the game rules the same. Correct.

[Neon]

2v2 Capture and Hold, no Strat~ points, Annihilate on with normal resources.

I feel the tactical element of DoW was intended to fight over the points, to play a tourny with just annihilate i think would move away from how the game was intended.

[bvark]

Originally posted by Njoroge
What's the game mode that means BFC always win?

Economic victory?

[Valane]

Afty versus Afty, two computers, two strategys, one man, no rules.

Ultimate Showdown.

[Anim]

Probably the best way to play would be:

2v2 .
t&h .
annihlate .
standard resource rates, standard start resources .
game speed FAST (otherwise games can take ages, and the game is so much better on fast if you havent tried it......)

[Recoil]

If the patch isnt out by the time i22 does the DOW tourne, how are you going to address teh SC bug?

[Njoroge]

Although I'm very confident the patch will be out in time I think the only way to address it would be to limit the SC to something like 5 members.

The following numbers show the ranged damage reduction with an SC squad size with conceal (bear in mind that the value should always be 25%).

1 25%
2 44%
3 58%
4 68%
5 76%
6 82%
7 87%
8 90%
9 92%
10 94%
11 96%
12 97%
13 98%
14 98%
15 99%

Define a point where it becomes silly and limit the squad size.

Option 2 would be to bad conceal but I think that would be restrictive for the eldar.

[Recoil]

Fingers crossed, another part unfortunatly that adds to the bug is the addtion of the FS to the SC with the Fortune upgrade.

Conceal does limit elder a little if it was removed, but not by a significant amount. Now if you suggested Entangle to be removed then id be crying.......

[Flufball]

The Stand Ground "Feature" is just as irritating tbh.

However, limiting seer council to numbers seems to be the best way to do it, although it may be quite hard to do without checking replays at some points, as its quite easy to get warlocks from gaurdian squads mixed up with council warlocks....

[afty]

The Seer Council bug is a real showstopper, we're fairly confident a patch will be released to address this before the tournament.

If Relic are not forthcoming with a patch, then we will consider several options including:

1] The limit of the Seer Council to X members.
2] The banning of either Seer Council use or Conceal (at the Eldar players discretion on a game to game basis)

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

Rules standard, as in resources etc
Annialte (cant spell ='( )
Capture and Hold

no other bollixs, everything else left as standard like random spawns etc

2v2 is a deffo
but tbh also 1v1 should be done, as it's become pretty damned large


as for the comments about making people "limit" there SC, all i can say is, come on people wakeup, when your playing a game and in a heat of a tactical fight, re-enforcing a squad is standard so adding more to the SC could be a massive mistake but enough to lose by default.

either dis allow the squad totally if there isnt a patch out by i22

or disallow the eldar race totally so no "mistakes" can happen.

it's a difficult one, but you cannot tell people there only allowed " a select" number in the council.

GAME ON SOOOOOOOOOOOON BIATCHES! :D

[Morphix]

2v2 and/or 3v3 tournaments would be the best.

Take and Hold
Destroy HQ
Annihilate

:)

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

Destroy HQ is basically Annihilate

so dont bother with HQ as if your already at that stage of getting hit, your already toast!


you also have to take into note that if they run this as a prize money tourny (which they should) having more than 2 will be very doubtfull

1v1 (good)

2v2 (excellent you see alot of team work)

3v3 (ok it good, but you would have to lose one of the above, and thats even if they would do more than 1)

[afty]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
Destroy HQ is basically Annihilate

so dont bother with HQ as if your already at that stage of getting hit, your already toast! No decision made as yet, but I just wanted to point out that it's definitely NOT the same. Destroy HQ allows teams the opportunity to play "hit and run" style attacks on the opponents base, sacrificing all their units to destroy this one building, rather than having to annhilate the entire thing. In addition in cases where the base would be overrun (an annhilate victory) it brings things to a close little quicker.

However, in the interests of discourse, Im leaning AGAINST Destroy HQ becuase it will give an advantage to teams who have better quick-strike capability, or stealth (Eldar and Marines primarily) and disadvantage the Orcs in particular, whose only sudden attack is the Stormboyz...

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

errm Destroy HQ is very sad and lame, and tbh any decent player wouldnt even allow an enemy in there base for that long.

Plus whats the point of building second HQ's etc

it should be left to control and hold and Annihilate, there is 100% no need for destroy HQ what so ever at all, plus non of the people here have asked for it... so surely you should be doing what the players want?

[Aardvark]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
no need for destroy HQ what so ever at all, plus non of the people here have asked for it

Originally posted by Morphix
2v2 and/or 3v3 tournaments would be the best.

Take and Hold
Destroy HQ
Annihilate

Reading isn't your strong point I take it? Much prefer to just shout about how it sohuld be what *you* want, yes?

[PuReBall]

the best setup would be 1v1 use standard DOW Ladder rules (as their the best and the most fair)

use all the ladder maps and just have brackets

2v2 maybe fun but its just mass squads group up and charge forward

1v1 is where the real sill is at and more fun to watch , not to mention it wuld make people try even harder for the single glory and the bigger prize pool ^^

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

Originally posted by Aardvark
Reading isn't your strong point I take it? Much prefer to just shout about how it sohuld be what *you* want, yes?

rofl, there is always one muppet isnt there?

dude, do you see _ANYONE_ else bar him that says it?
no i didnt think so

so now, go crawl back under your witty brick untill you find something else to try and make funny, cause frankly you suck at it.

on a serious note, every ladder match via DoW it's self is not Destroy HQ, every 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 that my clan has took part in again, has never had this rule.

and i have clocked around 70 on my main account, and around 80 on my previous account, and not 1 had that rule.

so it's kind of strange that 1 person *me claps Aardvark*
and the admin to be for the game is saying use it.....


and pure, you so know am going to kick your arse.... with a friend =E

i say when it's ta do with you, it's 2v1... just to give us little nubs a chance ;)

plus i dunno, watching you guys on WC3 1v1 was intense for sure, but from the look of the games, the rules and style of play is different, it does work for a good strong intense match to watch, but i actually feel 2v2's are just as better, it's not about just the rushing, and the building of mass units, as we have come across loads of different build techniques, some where the enemy go for tech over power, but have loads of scouts to hold the groud and go for likes of dreads... i know elder can get prisom tanks pretty damned rapidly, and thats a massive advantage and so on and so on..

you probably dont need to be told that as am sure you know more than your fair share in build orders and tatics =p

i just feel that 1v1 & 2v2 should be added, more on the 2v2 as a team thing is always more fun :)

oh, if you do away with the crappy Generals, and WC3 :E you can easily hold competitions for 1v1 and 2v2 as it's huge babeh!

take into account DoW tornies are going to be needed to work around UT2k4 and vis versa as a load of the players are one and the same :D

[Aardvark]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
rofl, there is always one muppet isnt there?

Hi there Fozzie.

[Lewis]

[Jihad] Are back for DOW c u all there

1v1 is the best mode as its more about micro management of forces rather than unit ammassing 2v2 is 2 hard to break through once one team has the other locked down

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

Originally posted by Aardvark
Hi there Fozzie.

alright Foo Foo :)

be what you are and get back in your kennel

Lewis, thats not fully true, i have been on the end of getting hammered and being able to pull it back with my team mate, like you said about 1v1's

it's all about the mirco :D

[andyf]

Bugger, away for a week and there's a major race advantage bug already?

Ok well seeing as this is Relic and not an EA studio ;) I'm happy to believe this will be patched up pretty quick.


Afty, is 2v2 pretty much going to be the order of the day then ?

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

oh and p.s

apologies to afty, i miss-read the part about him _against_ DHQ, i thought it said you where for it :E

/me kisses afty shoes

glad thats not getting selected cause a quick bombardmant from FC more or less takes a base totally out :s

[Zaccubus]

tbh 2v2 and 1v1 comp winning it seems like there be euff players for both formats to work

[Recoil]

Least Recoil > Zac at DOW :D

[afty]

Just so everybody knows, it is likely there will only be a single prizewinning tourney - if we have time we might organise a fun tourney too.

I will place up votes in a few days about tourney size, and settings.

Once we've picked that, I'll ask for your feedback re:maps.

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

basically
as long as the rules are anni, and capture and hold

all 2v2 and 1v1 maps are sweet, as there isnt just 1 critical to capture, making it a more balanced game! :)

[Aardvark]

Please please please please make the 2v2 the fun tourney. Me and Bonkers have a cunning plan :D

[Bonkers]

thats if i can go - and if im not staff :)
which are too very big IFs!

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

make the 1v1 fun
make the 2v2 prize as it's "team work"

[Zakalwe]

Agreed, 2 vs 2 is the traditional one (c.f. Generals).

Also you tend to get better games (less rushing, more fun for speccies).

[Silk75]

Originally posted by afty
The Seer Council bug is a real showstopper, we're fairly confident a patch will be released to address this before the tournament.

If Relic are not forthcoming with a patch, then we will consider several options including:

1] The limit of the Seer Council to X members.
2] The banning of either Seer Council use or Conceal (at the Eldar players discretion on a game to game basis)

You are having a laugh right?

What you are basically saying is that you cannot play against an early SC rush, so you would like to ban that unit or restrict it?

Easy solution, dont play at all.

How would you enforce the rule of restriction of SC? Observers? Who appoints them?

[Zakalwe]

Don't be daft silk, relic have announced that the seer council are bugged and that the following WILL be in the patch

1. Conceal stacking bug fixed
2. Council moved to after mobilise for war / made more expensive

I've stopped using the council because I've no desire to rely on a unit that is officially bugged and will be changed. Afty's comment is well made as a fully reinforced council with conceal research take only 0.1% of any ranged damage targeted at them and they are some of the strogest hand to hand fighters in the game. I repeat THIS IS A BUG.

an early SC with conceal rush (at 7 members) is almost entirely unstoppable, unless your opponent is very much better than you attack + move will see you wipe their army and their base. This is abusing a bug, not winning using a valid tactic.

There's also suppoedly a fix for the triple plasma grens bug - I'd like to stop using grens as well, but they don't always triple strike and I need them to break up marine squads with HBs and give my guardians a chance to mow em down. Also the triple strike ability only becomes really sick when used on squads of more than 10 ppl.

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

enforcing it will be very very simple if a patch aint out by then lol...

it's a case of if you know not to use them, but you do, and your other player see's it, all he has to do is say that you used it, show the demo quickly to where it appeared, and game over ;)

but i think where all hoping for the bug to be fixed more than stop using it or banning the race totally

[Silk75]

Apologies, I didn't clarify well there.

It is a bug, and it is recognised as such, but the fact remains, how will these restrictions to make things fairer (before a new patch is released) be enforced at a tourney?

Voluntary abstinance? or observer led enforcement?

If observer led then who and how many? Imagine trying to use a non DoW observer to observe a 7 unit guardian rush with plasma gren spammage, how can the untrained eye recognise this incorrect use?

Or perhaps we want to use other DoW players to observe, but that then opens things up to being less 'safe' in terms of refereeing.

Just questions I thought should be raised?

[Silk75]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
enforcing it will be very very simple if a patch aint out by then lol...

it's a case of if you know not to use them, but you do, and your other player see's it, all he has to do is say that you used it, show the demo quickly to where it appeared, and game over ;)

but i think where all hoping for the bug to be fixed more than stop using it or banning the race totally

So what you are saying is that ingame, with a mass battle going on at close quarters, you can count a 7 member SC from a 9 member SC? And be accurate enough to state the problem for minimum disruption?

Come on

[Njoroge]

So what you are saying is that ingame, with a mass battle going on at close quarters, you can count a 7 member SC from a 9 member SC? And be accurate enough to state the problem for minimum disruption?

Frankly yes. If you suspect an "over-quota" force then play on and report it after the game. The game can be watched and the SC followed - slow-mo if needed. Click on a single unit in the replay and count the green rings. If the force is a few over then perhaps the player should be warned; if it's way over then perhaps a default loss - up to afty.

Essentially it's not hard to watch a replay and count up. It's clearly going to be a touchy subject if a patch isn't released but something does need to be done about it.

In conclusion I think that rules can be inforced with replays. The rules and the consequences however are not up to me.

[Njoroge]

@Zakalwe

The grenade bug isn't as bad as the conceal stack at all. It's sensible to not rely on SC when you know they're going to be nerfed, but the grenades aren't gamewinning, they are just irritaing.

The first gren tend to splatter the units away and the other 2 do minimal damage but maybe keep the enemy on the floor for a fraction of a second longer.

Avoiding using them for fear of nerfage isn't as important as the SC crutch.

When I play against eldar and am getting triple gren'd, I'm disgruntled at most. It never decides the outcome of the engagement.

[Bonkers]

One of the only things that helps against a mass SM rush :)

[Zakalwe]

Sorry Silk, I thought you were defending use of the seer council.

For me, it's got to be a total ban* on Seer Council usage unless it's been patched, if you don't use conceal then they're expensive and crap anyway so it's no biggy. I've been playing purely as an eldar for awhile now with a self-inforced ban on the SC and I really don't see the lack.

*by total ban I mean actually using them. If you build them accidentally and leave them in your base that shouldn't be a forfeit (you can always DEL them in that case). If you build them and then blatantly reinforce them that should.

[afty]

As already mentioned earlier in this thread, if enforcement of a chosen Seer Council rule is required (we don't expect the patch to be delayed till after i22, but just in case) then it is quite easy to do with a replay.

Even better than counting circles, when you click on a unit, the unit count is displayed in the lower centre part of the console, current/maximum.

The rule, if required, will be absolute. There is no "leeway". As I have mentioned before, this rule is subject to the bug *not* being fixed. If the Eldar gren bug is not fixed, we will review this nearer the time, though current admin opinion is that we will not enforce a rule about this if the bug is still present, as it's not as significant as the Seer Council bug, and would actually serve to slightly offset the negative effect of the Seer Council restrictions we will need to impose.

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

Originally posted by Silk75
So what you are saying is that ingame, with a mass battle going on at close quarters, you can count a 7 member SC from a 9 member SC? And be accurate enough to state the problem for minimum disruption?

Come on

like i have already stated and so has many, the rule would be either No SC at all, or just ban eldar as a race full stop, but hopfully the patch will be out, and all should be sorted!

[afty]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
like i have already stated and so has many, the rule would be either No SC at all, or just ban eldar as a race full stop, but hopfully the patch will be out, and all should be sorted! As I have already stated, the rule is most likely to be to allow Eldar players the choice, of Seer Council or Conceal.
We will not be banning a race outright.

[Zakalwe]

Interestingly you can check if a seer council has conceal in a replay fairly easily apparently, two little blue dots show up next to their health bars.

[DjArcas]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
[B]rofl, there is always one muppet isnt there?

dude, do you see _ANYONE_ else bar him that says it?
no i didnt think so


Unless I'm getting retarded in my old age, I believe *I* suggested Destroy HQ. But you play your same old games, whilst I play something with a little bit of newness, eh?

[DjArcas]

[i]it's a difficult one, but you cannot tell people there only allowed " a select" number in the council.

[/B]

If an Eldar player wins, it's quite a simple matter to check the replay and see if he was abusing the bug. It's obvious to see the Eldar players that are abusing it, they just go mass SC.

[Aardvark]

It's not hard to check, and its not hard to spot if its happening to you other :)

[andyf]

Maybe a brief email to Relic - yes I know they are aware of the problem - highlighting the difficulty this bug places on tournament games, with subtle mention to i22 :D

[Bonkers]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
like i have already stated and so has many, the rule would be either No SC at all, or just ban eldar as a race full stop, but hopfully the patch will be out, and all should be sorted!

ban eldar full stop - ROFL - fancy some cheese with that whine?

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

well we will see how well the "caping" and limiting thing goes if the patch aint out wont we?

the if it goes smoothly, sweet

if not, you can pass the the garlic bread to go with that cheese and wine ;)

[Aardvark]

Its a piece of piss to spot. 'Oh look that Seer Council just raped my entire army'. *check replay* *hax detected* *default win*

[Zakalwe]

Official patch list up:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=43586&page=1&pp=15

Looks like it should be ok as 1.1 patch is expected by "the end of the month" :)

Seer council lose the conceal stack and become more expensive.

Plasma grens fixed

If engaged in melee when in F2 stance a squads accuracy drops to 1% so your HB toting marines are about to become Banshee-burgers:p

Sounds about right.

[andyf]

What's this Melee / F2 stance about then ?

[GBrookshaw]

If you set a ranged unit's stance to hold ground (F2 button is the shortcut), they will continue firing on their targets even if attacked in melee combat.

This means that CC troops were getting eaten up by their targets who were basically ignoring the fact that someone was hitting them with a big sword/claw/hammer/bit of wood with a nail in it.

It is only a temporary fix though, as Relic have commented in the patch notes thread.
They're apparently going to rework the whole stance system in the next patch.

[afty]

I assume Zak meant "ranged only" stance. And 1% seems incredibly harsh to me, 25% or 33% would be better IMO

[Zakalwe]

Seeing as they aren't supposed to be firing AT ALL it doesn't seem that harsh.

This looks to be a way of enforcing the rule before the real patch is released as NO ONE will want to leave their units firing in CC now. Should make _all_ the melee units more effective (orks in particular should benefit). Might make it worth actually buying the melee upgrades for sergeants etc.

[Njoroge]

Basically they couldn't be arsed fixing the bug where a member of a squad gets engaged but the rest of the squad still fire at their old targets and not the engaging squad.

The idea is that you should be able to stop a squad from shooting by engaging a single member of the squad in CC. Rather than enforce that, they let you carry on firing at your old target but you may as well be firing at a 15 member pre-patched concealed SC.

In the patch after next they will fix it properly. Ie if your shooty squad gets engaged, they all stop firing and wander over the the attacking units and stab them with stabby sticks.

[meloncoly]

1v1 for prize, 2v2 for fun

[Njoroge]

Play in the ladder for competitive 1v1. 2v2 is clearly better for tourny play.

Back to the original topic I reckon:
Double Elim
Capture and Hold
Critical Points
Annihilate

I like the criticals being important otherwise they're a bit pointless.

Fighting back with 30 seconds on the clock to uncap the enemies crit is great fun :)

[ScoRp1ouS]

2v2, annihilate, standard settings TBfh.

[meloncoly]

you can't ban the seer council, then eldar would have nothing to beat possessed marines/assault marines/every orc unit etc.

you'd have to hope for a patch or ban eldar completely, which is silly

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

you dont know how to play do you then?

come on, TELL THE TRUTH!

elder are good without the council, only problem is if any race rush em, they get a slappin early on =x

but same with SM

[meloncoly]

maximus, possessed marines would own eldar, as they'd have NOTHING to counter it, banshees suck, and they have nothing else

[Aardvark]

Originally posted by meloncoly
you can't ban the seer council, then eldar would have nothing to beat possessed marines/assault marines/every orc unit etc.

Reapers/Reapers/Spiders, respectively.

[meloncoly]

you don't understand, possessed OWN HARD reapers/spiders in hand-to-hand + they'd have extra marines, if you remove seers, you have to remove every other heavy hand-to-hand infantry otherwise eldar get owned

[Aardvark]

Erm. The trick is to avoid getting in hand to hand. A little micro goes a long way, just throwing them in and going 'oh **** they got into hth and died this game sucks' isn't exactly the work of a master tactician now is it?

[meloncoly]

not the point aardvark, it's unfair taking away eldar's hand-to-hand troops, possessed WILL own them, even with extra micro, it will simply be unbalanced.

there's a way to beat every sort of attack, shouldn't mean extra hard work for eldar players cos you took their best unit away

[Flufball]

Their best unit is currently able to be buged to invincible, how is that fair to the other races?

[meloncoly]

it's not, but you can't just say eldar can't have any hand-2-hand troops, you'd have to get rid of the race completely

[Flufball]

Banshee? May not be uberinvincable end all but it is a Hand to Hand unit so you can't claim they dont have non, however useless they are.

[meloncoly]

flufball, you want eldar to counter possessed with banshees? please stop with the stupid comments

[meloncoly]

also the conceal bug was officially fixed in the last patch?

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

the bloody answer is rush the ****ing chaos before they get possessed out, while there screwing around with there resources you get 2 units of banshee's and slaughter them down, ave seen it done enough times.

[meloncoly]

maximus seriously shut up, they can easily defend against a rush, and there can't be 1 single tactic for eldar

[Aardvark]

I'm quite happy playing as eldar without SC. If you can't handle that, then don't play. No point banning an entire race because ONE person thinks they're no good without one unit.

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

Originally posted by meloncoly
maximus seriously shut up, they can easily defend against a rush, and there can't be 1 single tactic for eldar

dude i think you need to seriously shutup, ave seen and have team mates who can whip the possesed arse, so either learn to actually play, or play somin else you find more simple.

if others aint complaining then obviously your doing somin wrong :)

gg etc

[Flufball]

Originally posted by meloncoly
flufball, you want eldar to counter possessed with banshees? please stop with the stupid comments

Where did I say use them as a counter? I simply said this: Banshee? May not be uberinvincable end all but it is a Hand to Hand unit so you can't claim they dont have non, however useless they are.

In reply to what you said here: t's not, but you can't just say eldar can't have any hand-2-hand troops, you'd have to get rid of the race completely

I'm not entirely sure how that is a stupid comment.

And incidentaly, Possesd are easily counterable with Reapers/Warp Spiders as has been said, if you're averse to microing to counter somthing, why are you playing eldar at all? They are generaly the micro-intense race of the game :S

[meloncoly]

there's hardly any micro in this game, possessed will own hard against reapers/banshees/spiders, there's no denying it, you can't simply ban the SC from a tournament without taking away others units, possessed are insanely strong and eldar will just die

[Flufball]

Well, you completly managed to miss my point......

[meloncoly]

"Possesd are easily counterable with Reapers/Warp Spiders"

nope, that's wrong you're wrong.

[Flufball]

/me slaps face

That wasnt my point, however its true, if possed are getting into combat, without being shot to bits then you're doing somthing wrong. Warp Spiders work great for this because they can jump so its odd that you find it hard to counter them...

[meloncoly]

wow they can jump twice, and not kill any, and get slaughtered by them. You're as bad as the people who said seer council are fine and you can counter them easily.

they will also have marines and other units, those + possessed will demolish eldar without seers, very unbalanced, more unbalanced than eldar having a seer council

[Flufball]

Point taken on easy, it can be quite hard to counter unless you're constantaly babysitting, meanwhile you're base gets attacked, but my point is it is possible...

[meloncoly]

of course it's possible, it's also possible for the seer council to be beaten early, still unbalanced, and banning them is a stupid idea, restricting them may be an OK idea, conceal bug got fixed also as mentioned

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

guys dont bother, this guys a complete tit, everyone else is kicking the **** out of possesed yet he demends he cant....

dude go play scrabble or somin, you sound like your totally **** at the game rofl..

/me waits for the witty funny comebacks..

my come back after that will be...

i22, 2v2 DoW you will be slaughtered within mins of starting! :p

GGTHXWPBYEBYE!

[meloncoly]

i'm not saying nothing else can kill possessed, just they are WAY too powerful vs banshees or any other eldar unit bar tanks. it WILL be unbalanced in their favour, what don't you understand about that?

[Aardvark]

Right, point 1, he's a blatant troll.

Point 2, for all the people who can actually play the game that are being misled by his comments: Warp Spiders will get a sound thrashing by any heavy infantry, which includes Possessed. The anti-HI unit in the Eldar force is the Dark Reaper. They CHEW through any type of marine you care to name, and there's not even enough time for them to die in hth if you position them right initially.

True, the long reset time will knacker them if you try to dance around, but bounding overwatch carefully managed will allow you to run from nasty assault types while hurting them plenty, especially with FoF.

Reports of the Eldar nerf have been greatly exaggerated ;)

[meloncoly]

i'm not a troll, I'm just saying banning the seer council is an unrealistic option. Sure a few squads of dark reapers, all upgraded, with 1 possessed squad running towards them, they'll win, but that's not how it works.

The reapers will get tied up in hand-to-hand by other marines and the possessed themselves, and will be wasted completely.

Lets just hope for a patch, I didn't mean to start arguments about how to beat a possessed squad, this post is almost identical to a post on the relic forums about the seer council in DoW beta.

[Zakalwe]

Possessed are easy to counter without the council - you entangle them then give them a damn good kicking with your reapers.

If you haven't got enough guardian squads to entangle by that point then you really really shouldn't be playing as eldar.

SC should be banned until it's fixed. It's not unfair to do that since it is currently heavily bugged. When it's fixed I'm still not going to be throwing it into H2H with possessed since that's a very inefficient usage of resources.

[afty]

Neither Seer Council nor Eldar will be banned completely.

Eldar players will have the choice of either:
-] Using Seer Council
-] Researching Conceal
One or the other, but not both at the same time.

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

dude, do you read these posts in another language by any chance?

cause mirco is how that is sloved, but your to dumb to do it i guess, makes me kind of laugh your the "only" one so far saying you cannot take a elder, frankly reapers and webspiders together are stupidly over powered, someone listed the damage each unit does, and frankly atm Elder are far more damaging. "BUT" this does not mean i cant take them on, so if i can counter stupidly powerful elder, why cant you with chaos :)

you = nubnub

Learn to play, or go back to your barbie and ken dolls :x

[Recoil]

max..... ssshhhhhh u n00b

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

get back in your match boxs midget!
did i say you could come out and play?

NO

so get back in =p

[Recoil]

Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
get back in your match boxs midget!
did i say you could come out and play?

NO

so get back in =p

Still doenst remove the point that u are a n000bbb :D

[andyf]

Cut out the insults lads, this is a tournament discussion thread.

[-=[M@ximus]=-]

tournament that wont be allowing any UT2004 players in from what am being told cause the DDom runs at the same time.


pfft, i shall show you noob recoil when i r sticken meh foot up j00 bum bum :D

[Bambers]

Originally posted by afty
Neither Seer Council nor Eldar will be banned completely.

Eldar players will have the choice of either:
-] Using Seer Council
-] Researching Conceal
One or the other, but not both at the same time.


I guess that's a non issue now with the various fixes in the 1.1 patch?

[afty]

indeed :)