an interesting fact

[Elbonio]

i read today that the university of Arizona did a study and found these startling figures:


Number of microbes per cm^2 on an average keyboard : 511
Number of microbes per cm^2 on an average toilet seat : 8

[TE-Hellfire]

Number of microbes per cm^2 on an average i-series attendee's armpit epidermis : 120,000,000,000

[Squeeb]

/me invests in telepathic keyboard

[Afty]

How often do you clean your toilet seat?

Your keyboard?

How often do you touch your toilet seat?

Your keyboard?

How often do you put your hands near or in your mouth after the toilet seat without washing?

Now your keyboard.

See what I'm getting at? Oh, and Im sat here typing this while eating cheese, salad, fruit + lamb cold cuts. With my fingers...

[RK[CLL]]

Originally posted by afty
Oh, and Im sat here typing this while eating cheese, salad, fruit + lamb cold cuts. With my fingers...

your fingers are eating??

[Guigsy]

i like the taste... gives things a zing

[Lucifa]

Bah, a bit of bacteria never hurt anyone........


Lucifa

[Elbonio]

i think d@ m@d m00 grew from a piece of fruitcake that fell into a keyboard


20 hot summer days later and he was fully incubated into the boy you see now.

he does not age. he does not grow. but he can still love.

[Afty]

Originally posted by lucifa
Bah, a bit of bacteria never hurt anyone........
I couldn't agree more. I eat stuff of dodgy surfaces (like the desk, trays etc. - I just blow fluff off stuff when it's fallen off a plate onto the floor) and I often eat stuff that's a little out of date. I sometimes go delving into the kitchen bin for stuff I didn't really mean to throw away 5 mins previously.

It often freaks my housemates out, but the proof is, as they say, in the pudding. I was ill for 2 days this week for the first time in a year and that was only a sore throat. I've had nothing worse than a bad cold for about 10 years - my habits mean that while I pick up quite a few "germs" so catch things fairly often, my immune system just shrugs it all off fairly easily.

I imagine it would be painful to try and get into a regime like that though, if you've always lived your life in quite a clean/hygienic habitat...

[Elbonio]

i suppose its the biological equivlient of updating your virus definitions


i agree it would be hard to change though

i'm not totally picky, i'm not one of these people who throws something away if its a day past its sell by date, but i do have quite high standards that i expect my food to be


not saying that you dont afty but for example i wouldnt blow fluff off something if i drop it on the floor, it goes in the bin ;)


but i think you're right about that though, your immune system is probably way stronger than mine becuase of it

[Say_Ten]

I agree, I haven't had the most hygenic upbringing and I rarely get ill. You've got to keep your immune system exercised like everything else ;p

[alipuk]

Originally posted by afty
I imagine it would be painful to try and get into a regime like that though, if you've always lived your life in quite a clean/hygienic habitat... Become a student???

[Aardvark]

I can't believe that people think that if you drop something on the floor its immediately tainted. Just eat the bloody thing.

[KingDaveRa]

This is all so true!

All these multi-surface cleaners are great, but we're all starting to live in these totally clean environments which just means we're not building immunities to the nasty things around us. I know people who are constantly ill, whereas I too usually just get bad colds (on week three of this one now, but its going at least!!)

[Elbonio]

an interesting point


do you think the world is turning into a big hypochondriac?

Are overuse of antibiotics and anti bacteria cleaners leading to us having weaker immune systems and the bacteria becoming even more resistant?

In 50 years will this be a problem?

[Guigsy]

dirty kitchen counter... hasnt been cleaned for a while... you drop some food on it. pick it up and eat it. your more likely to be fine than if u had just wiped it with a cloth doused in hundreds of chemicals tbh :)

[KingDaveRa]

Originally posted by Elbonio
an interesting point


do you think the world is turning into a big hypochondriac?

Are overuse of antibiotics and anti bacteria cleaners leading to us having weaker immune systems and the bacteria becoming even more resistant?

In 50 years will this be a problem?

Yes. It already is a problem. All these kids with allergies to christ knows what, half of them with asthma. Very few people my age are allergic to much of anything, and I can think of only one or two people I know who were asthmatic.

It seems we're going to turn into a race of clean freaks with hardly any immune system to speak of. Its kind of ironic when you consider these things are meant to cure all ills, but in fact make things worse.

[Steadders]

last winter/summer (of 2003) i was home ill basicly inside for 6 months or so, and i paid for it this winter.

i normaly dont get that ill, but this winter i got every cold and virus possible (more or less :p ) most likly because my imune system didnt do anything last year! so it's building up again this year.

[Mamacita]

Afty's totally right (again). I've never been ill with anything except a cold which I seem to have permenantly. But which I imagine is down to the previous 7/8 years of smoking.

I seem to be imune to everything. Never had chicken pocks, mumps, measels, rubella, scarelet fever (I can't think of any more and have probably duplicated myself).. I just hope to god I dont get them any later in life.

So far so good, I may not be physically fit but I'm immune baby :)

[AcidUK]

What a load of ********.

Basic principle of natural selection: A phenotypic trait that is advantageous, and is passed on via a mechanism of heredity causes on average an increased likelihood of survival to breeding age, thus causing the advantageous trait to be found in a greater proportion of the population in the next generation.

If peoples immune systems "grow weak" through lack of use (I'm fairly sure that that's a load of ******** too), they are more likely to die before reaching the all important age, so there will be fewer people with the immune system that grows weak through lack of use.

If we found a substance that could prevent all "nasty" bacteria/viruses from being able to reproduce, then either:
a) There would be no more disease - no need for an immune system, so natural selection would favour neither instance.
b) The viruses/bacteria would mutate to circumvent the substance - all the people without effective immune systems die, and we're back at a point where everyone in the population has a "strong" immune system.

Either way, unless having a properly functioning immune system actually reduces your chance of survival/breeding when disease is eradicated, there will always be people with immune systems as good as the times before anti-biotics/other substances.

[Edit: this isnt directed at anyone]

[Afty]

Originally posted by AcidUK
If peoples immune systems "grow weak" through lack of use (I'm fairly sure that that's a load of ******** too)
It's a fairly widely accepted scientifici theory...

[andyf]

you are up late, go to bed.

[andyf]

Originally posted by Aardvark
I can't believe that people think that if you drop something on the floor its immediately tainted. Just eat the bloody thing.


haha it's not belief, it's fact. A documentary has been broadcast whereby scientists measured stuff dropped on the floor and proved the 3 second rule to be just another saying. As soon as it hits the floor, the sample was immediately contaminated by bacteria.

[RocketKnight]

Just shout "whoops, caught it on the first bounce", blow on it, and eat it. It won't do you any harm.

You've probably been doing it all your life. Like when you were a child, eating a chocolate bar and the last bit fell out the packet. You picked it up and ate it.

[Steadders]

i never used to since i got a cat, so the floor had cat hair on etc, but now i just cba! if i drop some chocolate i still want it!!!

[Aardvark]

Originally posted by andyf
haha it's not belief, it's fact. A documentary has been broadcast whereby scientists measured stuff dropped on the floor and proved the 3 second rule to be just another saying. As soon as it hits the floor, the sample was immediately contaminated by bacteria.

Ah yes. But the second it touches your fingers, its immediately contaminated by bacteria as well. So balls to it, unless you regularly store raw sewage on your floor, in which case yes that might be a tad risky.

[KingDaveRa]

Originally posted by Aardvark
Ah yes. But the second it touches your fingers, its immediately contaminated by bacteria as well. So balls to it, unless you regularly store raw sewage on your floor, in which case yes that might be a tad risky.

Very true. You could wash your hands before you eat everything, but how would that work if you're at the seaside and decide to have a bag of chips? Are you going to go find a sink, which is clean no less, and wash your hands first? Of course not. We're all covered in germs and thats just the way it is.

[AcidUK]

Originally posted by afty
It's a fairly widely accepted scientific theory... I would genuinely like to read about something like this. If you have any links, please pass them on. Ive googled but have yet to find anything.

The immune system isn't one of the things that I've read much on, other than basic stuff surrounding the A-level biology course. There's a whole chain of events which are triggered by a foreign entity entering a body, and not one of them relies on any sort of muscle, or indeed any tissue that could become stronger through use.

There are studies detailing how stress weakens the immune system, but that's to do with the short term hormones released (eg: adrenaline) which interfere with receptors involved in pinpointing the sites of infection, as well as reducing muscle mass, and causing a temporary change in cell function, making them more susceptible to the initial infection stage. To this end, there are some impressive figures floating around, which show that confident males have a fairly significantly smaller risk of contracting AIDs than shy males, who also respond less well to antiviral agents.

[AcidUK]

Originally posted by KingDaveRa
Very true. You could wash your hands before you eat everything, but how would that work if you're at the seaside and decide to have a bag of chips? Are you going to go find a sink, which is clean no less, and wash your hands first? Of course not. We're all covered in germs and thats just the way it is. I think the point is to *limit* introduction of bacteria/viruses to the body, just in case some of them are actually harmful. No-one is saying that you have to live in a sterile environment, but if a crisp falls on the floor, you have to make a judgement call as to whether you think the risk of becoming infected outweighs the benefits of picking it up and eating it :)

[Aardvark]

Its not muscle conditioning thats involved. To put it very VERY simply, antibody production by the immune system is a 'flood' effect. When the bad guff has been 'mopped up', the excess antibodies persist in your system, and therefore jump up and down on any future instance of the same foreign body in your system.

And yes, you DID cover this in A-level biology, because I bloody covered it in GCSE biology :D

[Elbonio]

Acid UK:

we're saying that by not being so fussy about what dirt etc gets into your body, you're basically taking in small amounts of bacteria

this might not be enough to make you ill but it's enough for your body to recognise it, learn how to beat it and store this information

the same a vaccine works


so by *not* doing this (ie bing overly clean) you're missing out on all that new virus defination data your biological AV systems needs to keep you healthy

;)

[AcidUK]

I think I’ve meandered a bit, and caused you to miss the point. People are suggesting that your immune system becomes weaker through lack of use. Now while that isn't analogous to the immune system becoming stronger through working effectively, I more or less suggested it was.

As for what you’ve said - its slightly inaccurate, the antibodies are removed at a constant rate, its just that one of the types of B lymphocytes goes on to produce the antibodies for up to 10 years. The chance of re-infection by the same virus strain for something like cold/flu is extremely remote given their rate of mutation (hence why there is no cure). The only real chance of this happening, is if you become infected again in the same short time period (ie: if it’s going round the office at work). In order for you to have successfully fought off the virus and become immune to it, one of two possibilities must have occurred:

[list=1]
You were infected by a strain of a virus, the virus ran its course, and your body kept its immunity - if this is the case, then you were infected by it in the first place. Re-infection by the same virus will most likely result in no symptoms, but you've already been infected by the virus once. Some people here are saying that because they "exercise" their immune systems, they fight off viruses before they can take effect, if this scenario has taken place, then their idea of making their immune system stronger is to try and become infected by every bacteria/virus strain possible so that it can only affect them once.
Your immune system dealt with the virus before it could infect a large enough number of cells to gain a foothold. This is the scenario most people must be talking about, the other way of making their immune system strong doesn't make sense. If this has happened, there is *nothing* you could have done to cause this outcome which involves frequently ingesting malicious entities.
[/list=1]

I think my point is becoming a little garbled. The reference to muscles was not one that was meant literally. What I was trying to convey was that there is no way to keep your immune system on its toes by throwing lots of stuff at it to keep it busy. There is only one type of cell that non-specifically kills unrecognised entities, I believe its what many people refer to as the white blood cell, (I'm not entirely sure that’s what it is, there’s a special name for it, but i cant remember it atm). From what I've learnt, these cells are not produced any more rapidly because of infection, and even if they were, they are for the most part only there to slow down the rate of infection (hence the need for a specific secondary system).

[AcidUK]

Originally posted by Elbonio
Acid UK:

we're saying that by not being so fussy about what dirt etc gets into your body, you're basically taking in small amounts of bacteria

this might not be enough to make you ill but it's enough for your body to recognise it, learn how to beat it and store this information

the same a vaccine works


so by *not* doing this (ie bing overly clean) you're missing out on all that new virus defination data your biological AV systems needs to keep you healthyWell thought out point, but I think that’s flawed by the fact that it only takes one cell to infect the body, having two of the same strain enter your body, merely doubles the chances of one of them taking hold.

At best, if you've been infected by 2 bacterial cells rather than one, then that’s just one stage of division you've missed out on (I forget how long it takes for an infected cell to divide, but a figure of 1 hour seems familiar).

Viruses on the other hand (cold/flu etc.) can reproduce in their thousands per infected cell. When you couple this with the fact that the specific and effective secondary immune system (ie: the one that eventually is responsible for more long-term immunity) takes 3-4+ days, consuming small quantities of bacteria/viruses is just as bad for you as consuming 100x the quantity.

[Aardvark]

All I know is that I eat stuff thats fallen on the floor, and I don't seem to get ill as often as other people.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of it just being a coincidence :D

[AcidUK]

heh, I often pick stuff up off the floor, it just so happens that this is a great opportunity to practise essay writing for synoptic questions in one of my Biology exams :D

[Afty]

Originally posted by AcidUK
Your immune system dealt with the virus before it could infect a large enough number of cells to gain a foothold. Absolutely.
You know what a vaccination is, right? It's a very similar principle.

I won't touch a pie that's been left out for three weeks and is festering, that would be suicide, but to eat a pie thats a couple days out of its "eat by date" means it probably has higher levels of fairly common bacteria and virii that a fresh pie would not have. Eating thusly means my body is regularly exposed to the most common bacteria and virii present in most foodstuffs, on kitchen and living rooms usrfaces, floors etc. at quite low levels - and as such it's a weird but effective way of vaccinating myself. If I ever were to ingest these bacteria in larger quantities (**** happens...) then I would have a much better chance of fighting off a serious infection which resulted in my being incapacitated, or feeling unwell.

As many of the bugs that do the rounds every year (sore throats/colds/flu etc.) are fairly common around the house, and indeed many (flu etc.) are differing strains with some similarities, I believe the policy also has some effect on how often I am badly stricken by such nasties... and the very small data set that is me, seems to indicate some success.

[Elbonio]

afty is a demographic group in himself

[FeAr]

Originally posted by Elbonio
Acid UK:

we're saying that by not being so fussy about what dirt etc gets into your body, you're basically taking in small amounts of bacteria

this might not be enough to make you ill but it's enough for your body to recognise it, learn how to beat it and store this information

the same a vaccine works


so by *not* doing this (ie bing overly clean) you're missing out on all that new virus defination data your biological AV systems needs to keep you healthy

;)

biology lesson for 'computer geeks' :P

[Elbonio]

brain = cpu + ram
eyes = vga card
mouth + ears = sound card
memory = Hd's
Liver+kidneys = spam filter
Immune system = antivirus software
stomach/digestive system = PSU
Nervous system = mainboard
sexual organs = network adapter