Unfair Balance methinks

[andyf]

Aurora Alpha vs. Nuke Migs

since 1.01 (and therefore 1.02) restored the Alphas to their original planned power, the Nuke Migs seem to pail in comparison. Anyone else think a tactical nuke should do somewhat more damage than it does?

In fact i'm gonna go test right now whether they do the same power as a Nuke Cannon shell. I bet they don't.

[Chicane]

the game is still buggy as ever.

[Ryvita]

Aurora Alphas are indeed, insanely nasty. However, when you take them in the context of the rest of the superweapon general's abilities, they are needed to compensate for the complete lack of tanks. The nuke general has tanks as well as beefy planes, so they shouldn't be quite as good as the AAs, OK maybe beef them up a bit, but not too much.

At the top end, just about the only viable attack the Superweapon player has is Auroras or Particle cannons. This doesn't give much to play with really, particularly against enemy armour thrusts. Plus knock out the airfield (fairly easy to do) and bye-bye goes 10K's worth of aurora.

Superweapon general needs work in my opinion, it's far too one-trick-horse (even if it is a very effective one, and makes a cracking back-up player to have on your side in multiple player games.) If I'm having difficulty, I normally end up resorting to knicking stuff to flesh out the mid-range ranks. :)

Ryv

[Freelancer]

superweapon general is good for them "defensive" type players, the only thing they need to watch out for is us air and china infantry tbh. And the aurora's are much more effiecent than particle cannons :)

[Blue_Monkey]

Aplha aroras are overpowered full stop, In a multiplayer game 3v3 4v4 etc the team that has a decent sw gen will always win as they can easily take doen any pop ups and eat away at the front defenses without getting touched. I play with a couple of mates online, and the amount of times we've had on sw gen and two defending/attacking weak spots is stupid. It got boring so now when we play it's no sw general as a rule.

[Freelancer]

any good usa air or china infantry can hurt usa superweapon, and i think its very nooby like that u dont play against usa superweapon

[afty]

The man has an extremely good point though - if you play a multiplayer game, and the others protect the SW guy so he can build up a decent number of Aurora Alphas, he can simply peal you like an onion, and nothing you have can touch him - except if you manage to time your own fighters just right, to hit the Auroras on their way out - only your guys aren't invulnerable, so the AA underneath chews you up, and you lose more anyway...

One thing I've never liked in strategy games is "absolutes" - it just makes the games crap. ex.

Invisibility - no unit should be invisible, reduced sight range is cool, but invisible is bad
Invulnerable - no such thing, can take much LESS damage, but inv. sucks
One-Shot-Kill - bad bad bad, do MORE damage, but not one shot kills.


*That* is why to me, Kohan : Immortal Sovereigns is the purest and best strategy game of all time - and oh look, the sequel is out this year! (though I am sceptical about the new features)

[Elbonio]

the only problem with aurora bombers is they die... every time.....

an expensive kamakaze if you will....

[Zakalwe]

That's aurora bombers, not Aurora Alphas. Alphas are like bombers, but they drop fuel air bombs, 1 alpha can kill 9 tanks in one shot.

Very hard to defend against. Essentially unless you can hit the superweapon general early they can sit behind their EMP turrets and rape you dry with the planes.

I think the next patch is going to tone them down a bit, either via cost, time to build or reload time.

Basically if you're facing the superweapon general you need to hit them early with a combination of men and tanks. Unless you have the ecm and can jam the EMP turrets shots.

[Optimus]

Elbonio, Aurora Alpha's are powerful enough to own numerous powerplants, meaning no AA to take them down... you only have to worry about unit-based AA...

Counter-Measures deflect 50%+ of rocket attacks, meaning the only things that are dangerous to Auroras are the Gattling Tanks and Quad Cannons...

tbh, given time to prepare, the SW general is pretty much impenetrable... the Über-power plants ensure everything is always running, line after line of EMP Patriots will cane any vehicles and most air attacks and infantry can be taken care off with strategic Firebases with a Sniper, 2 Rocket Infantry and a Ranger upgraded with Flashbangs garrisoned...

Until they fixed the tunnel rush problem, SW was totally impractical online as everyone would just run up to your base and unleash hell before you even had 2 power plants... but now... :)

[Elbonio]

I wasnt questioning their firepower!

you send 4 of them into a base, 0 come back

they get there okay it's just when they slow down after firing...

it's effective but expensive

at 8,000 per airfield its expensive stuff

usually though by that time of the match you're rolling in cash anyway...

[Freelancer]

i think the game is balanced the way it is now tbh. the best way to kill a usa superweapon is to use infantry against the emp turrets, they hardly hurt infantry!!! and usa airforce can get through the emp turrets easily and can therefore destroy the strat center or airfields before any aurora alphas have been built.

[Zakalwe]

It's not balanced at the moment in that after a certain point in the game the SW general becomes pretty much invulnerable.

The damage the fuel air bombs do means 2 can wipe out an any attack force before they get within range of the turrets. (I saw 1 of yours kill 4 emperor overlords with one shot Free). As they are invulnerable until they've fired you CANNOT STOP THIS HAPPENING!

The only strats I've come up with (unless you are playing USA air) are to either hit the general early (when he's weak against men) or generate sufficient generals points to land an artillery strike on the airfield then roll in with combined arms. If you don't hit them early there's every chance they'll get pathfinders (which means your men are screwed) and the EMP turrets mean land based attacks are screwed unless you're using a long range unit.

I'd have less of a problem with the superwep general if the EMP's were pretty much totally ineffective against men, but they're not. 4 rocket men v 1 turret and the turret wins, back the turret up with 1 or 2 rangers and unless you've got an angry mob (level 2 unit and usually arrive near to pathfinders) you are not going to get through. So you're facing a turret that can win against any number of tanks, snipers who can kill unlimited numbers of men and planes that can't be blocked and can wipe out an attacking force.

It's not really a problem in 1 v 1, the SW gen is fairly weak initially and easily crushed. However, 2 v 2 or higher and the map's become big enough for them to establish a fron line of turrets, then the clock starts ticking and unless you get through those turrets within about 5 minutes the auroras make your ground forces pointless. This does not apply to the Airforce general.

So, not overpowered in 1 v 1, but invulnerable in late-game. They definitely need a bit of nerfing.

[afty]

We played a game last night versus the SW general, and the GLA Toxin General (though tbh almost any general would have worked in place of the Toxin general).

What happened was:

The SW general rushes to the choke point and starts putting up static defences with his dozer. I rush to the choke point with infantry (multiple rocket men) but of course, his static D goes up before my infantry can kill the turret or dozer.

So... a few seconds later the GLA general builds anti infantry defences (the tunnel) near the EMP turrets, and SW general just keeps building EMPs concentrated at the choke, but in a massive pattern around his base.

So what, at this point, can I do to win the game? I have no weapons (I am china tank general) that can outrange the EMP turrets. I cannot infantry swarm them (not that that is cost effective anyway, and a few Rangers ends that idea). I cannot tank swarm as the four EMP turrets will take out ANY number of attacking tanks. I cannot hit them with my airforce, as they one-shot kill my planes. I cannot attack his power as it is inside a ring of EMP turrets. I cannot gain any general points to get artillery to hit his power, because he doesn't attack me.

So, we can sit back and wait - we can see if my more expensive and slower super weapons will triumph against his cheaper and faster ones (hint : they won't) or we can surrender.

Sadly, I really enjoyed Generals, and I will still play the odd game with friends if they are playing Zero Hour, but Zero Hour is a POOR mod - it picks up on the "unit/counter" system that some tactical players get a hardon for and takes it to a massive extreme.

I appreciate that the SW general is a fairly exceptional case, however zero hour has taken Generals from the FIRST EVER Westwood C&C Game that was balanced and interesting, and turned almost every side into one, or two trick ponies. It's a game for 6 year olds now, there are no choices to be made :(

[bvark]

Interestingly the overwhelming majority of games we solicited last night wouldn't allow us to play with the SW general.

[afty]

Indeed - and while I'm actually tiring of trying to put something into Zero Hour (as I think it's a lost cause, nerfing or no) I don't think the Aurora Alphas are the biggest problem of the SW general - it's the EMP turrets.

That general is a one trick pony, bottle yourself up, in an (almost) impenetrable defence, hit incoming enemies with alphas and wait for superweapon joy.

[Optimus]

aren't the EMP rockets succeptable to point-defence lasers?

that should mean other US generals can get pretty close if they have plenty of Paladins or King Raptors...

[afty]

Originally posted by Optimus
that should mean other US generals can get pretty close if they have plenty of Paladins or King Raptors...

This is really my whole thrust - the game is all about which general you are, it's almost like playing a more complex version of scissors-paper-stone during the loading screen.

The choices you can make, from a tactical and strategic point of view are almost non existant.